Ep. 35 - A "Just Us" Episode

Michael “Brody” Broshears and Kevin Thomas revisit Saturday morning cartoons, video games, hockey debates, and conversations that shaped their early years. They then turn to higher education, challenging the assumption that conferences are the primary form of professional development and highlighting creative, practical ways educators and administrators continue to grow without travel or reimbursement forms.

*The Pickup Meeting is a spinoff of the Adventures in Advising podcast!

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Transcript

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Let's go. 

Kevin Thomas  
And away we go. Welcome to The Pickup Meeting, where the agenda is optional, but our opinions are not, you decided to listen today, folks. It's a just us episode. Let's dive in today. How are you, Brody?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I'm doing, I'm doing pretty well. I'm back from vacation, little hungover today.

Kevin Thomas  
Your vacation hangover, or drink

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
too much Mountain Dew, I guess, or Diet Mountain Dew, or Mountain Dew Zero, or whatever, but yeah, back to work, back to the grind,

Kevin Thomas  
I get that. And so we are in the end of May recording episode that will release on June the three, June the three. Happy June, everyone!

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, here's the thing. Summer's here, and the thing we're going to talk about to start this off with our nonsense conversation is hockey. Nothing quite like summer and hockey.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, the playoffs are great, right?

Kevin Thomas  
Well, here's the thing, so like we're going to talk a little bit about this with the blues, and some of this comes from our very own listener, Sarah Howard, saying we talk about all the sports, but never hockey. Oh, right, never hockey. And so I thought, given some of the things that were going on, we have an opportunity to do this, but I'm also one of these folks that will say I didn't really understand hockey, kind of got into it. The St. Louis Blues probably pushed me over an edge, but I still think their season is far too long. It's like they start in late September, October, and they'll finish in late June.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That seems excessive to me. Yes, it is excessive, potentially, but it's no different than, say, baseball. I mean, baseball's way too long, too. But let's. I mean, let's get back to hockey. This is what I want to talk about, right? Hockey is one of those sports you're never going to catch me on ice skates ever again in my life, right? Ever, and I'm just not very coordinated that way, and it always gives me a greater appreciation for those athletes who are able to do what they're doing on skates. That's why I'm kind of enamored with hockey. It's pretty amazing, but I have nightmares that if I get on an ice rink without gloves, that if I fall, somebody's going to skate over my fingers and just chop them off, like that's one of the nightmares I used as a kid, and so I'm not, I'm not doing much ice skating the rest of the way, I don't think.

Kevin Thomas  
I'm not doing any ice skating, matter of fact, I used to roller skate, and that would have been a thing, I had a friend tell me this the other day, they said, oh, I went roller skating this weekend, and I said, did you like the near death attempt that you just did there? Like, it feels like that would hurt like an awful lot. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I mean, yeah.

Kevin Thomas  
I'm not getting on ice skates, I'm not getting on roller skates, I'm not doing either to play hockey, but I'm enjoying some hockey-related things.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes, I got into hockey through video games. I remember NHL PA 93 my senior year at Indiana University as an RA. I had a floor that was infatuated with that game, and we played it all the time, and I played the Detroit Red Wings. I even bought a Detroit Red Wings jersey, I bought a Sergey Federoff jersey, he was a Russian winger, super fast, really good, and I was into it. No one could beat me at that game. I was the champ on the floor.

Kevin Thomas  
Hockey video games are the best, even the ones now I would rather than some other sports games. And so I do enjoy hockey more, and video games are a part of that, but the St. Louis Blues in their run to beating the Boston Bruins, for all of our New England fan area that's listening, was a special time, like it just felt like we were all part of something transformational in the St. Louis community.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
The Gloria song, I loved that. Part of it, right, celebrating after the games with Gloria, that was fascinating to me.

Kevin Thomas  
The worst story.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You weren't, were you not a fan of the Gloria song?

Kevin Thomas  
I was even now when I hear it, and there was a commercial recently that had it on, I'm like, folks, come on, that's St. Louis' song, no one else should play that song again, but the worst to first, that's kind of like your Indiana Hoosier. See how I brought them in, and you didn't have to.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Look at that, the national champions for 2025 right?

Kevin Thomas  
That's right, you're welcome for throwing that in there.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Appreciate that so much, Kevin. Yeah, we've also, I mean, here recently, you know, we had the Olympics, and there was kind of a big to-do about the women's gold versus the men's gold, which was, and I think we're kind of carrying some of that momentum in now with a couple of great shows. My wife really loved Heated Rivalry got me into heated rivalry. I watched it, and now the same folks that did heated rivalry did a show called Shorsey. I got you into that. I was addicted to Shorsey. God, I couldn't get away from?

Kevin Thomas  
You did get me to watch Shorsey. I have still not watched Heated Rivalry, and I don't think I'm going to, I for whatever reason, Shorsey, as I'm hanging out in the apartment, just chilling, it was a fine show to watch, but Heated Rivalry feels a little romantic for my sit in my apartment and hang out and watch Heated Rivalry, I just, from what I know about the show, I, it really hits a lot of important topics. There's no question about that. And Shorzy does too, but in a totally different way. Very crude and crass, but I think charming as well. It's interesting to me that the two different approaches that the same person has taken with both of these shows. Yeah, there was a couple things in Shorsey that hit me, and I like this Dick Vermeil Vermeil quote, that you know, it was like essentially, if it's, if it's easy, it doesn't matter, right? Like, oh, that's one of those quotes he has, and there was a similar in one of the Shores, the episode where it's, it's not success unless you have someone to share it with, and it was like, wow, that kind of hit hard, right? Yeah, great quote. I'm a big quote person, and so I like that one. And then one that, like, I feel in my bones at this moment, because you just never know what people are going through in life. Everybody's playing through something here, you got to play through it, you got a battle, right? There's a great quote.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
It's a great quote.

Kevin Thomas  
And it's happening, like we all are facing it, whether we're administrators or people that are working together with others, you know, it's like those, those are those are things that are happening, like our teams are facing things in life. I just got a message right before we went on, from one of my directors, that was saying, okay, this happened to one person, and then this happened, and then this, like, life is happening, life is happening, but you do have to get through it, you know. We've been talking about hockey a lot today. One of the things Shorsey talks about, too, is building culture, setting the tone. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Two great quotes that are built throughout that series. And I know we haven't talked about, I mean, we've talked a little bit about summer, but that's a really important - those are two really important phrases as we think about the work that we do in the summer, right? Yeah, I would agree. I mean, it's not time to rest. I mean, we want to give people a chance to recharge, no question, but there's a lot of strategizing, a lot of rebuilding. You posted in LinkedIn today, I just saw that, like, it's construction time. I love that approach.

Kevin Thomas  
It is, and here's the thing about construction, and the way that I feel like summer operates. Everybody loves to go in the building, everybody wants to go in the brand new facility, everybody wants to go in the renovation, everybody wants to go in the building that's just been cleaned, even if you're not everybody wants to be a part of the end product, but a lot of people forget about the journey, right? A lot of people think about all that work that's done, that construction that occurs, that that brings people together in the end, or brings a project together, or brings an effort together, or supports students, that construction is often often not considered, and so that's what, yeah, today's LinkedIn post was about. There's a lot of construction happening on campuses right now, and I'm not talking about the physical kind, although that's always a good sign of a healthy campus system construction, but I'm talking about the kind that's happening in Tuesday morning meetings where. So you know, this morning I'm meeting with the grad school dean, and we're talking about ways to make grad recruitment better, right? That's something that's going to pay off in 12 and 18 months from now, but it is not going to pay off next week.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I was talking with my associate director for preview program, and you know, we haven't even started preview this summer yet, and we've made some big changes, and we're already talking about 27 thinking about what results in 26 might mean for 27 So, you are building all the time.

Kevin Thomas  
You are, yeah. And here's the thing, that is the good way, and we've talked about this before in the show. I feel like we're all just stewards of the seat that we sit in.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes.

Kevin Thomas  
And so with that being the case, whether or not we plan to be on our campus in our seat or doing whatever in 2030 2035 2040 we're still building for that that moment in that seat.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Man, 2040 what are you doing to me? Could be dead by then.

Kevin Thomas  
14 years ago, not

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
that would be at 70. I mean,

Kevin Thomas  
listen, you can't lose any more hair than you have. I mean,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I guess that's fair.

Kevin Thomas  
The thing that you know we talk about seats, and let's let's let's transition, okay, to maybe this look of what is the traditional student experience, and and we've talked a little bit about how our adult learners, the non 20 or non 18 year old student comes in, but we still design campus life and academic expectations around this version of college that probably doesn't exist anymore. Do you see us that we like involve evolving in this way of what we do?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Well, it's that's a hard question. 

Kevin Thomas  
Questions.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I think at my old institution we weren't primarily traditionally aged residential campus in in scope, just generally we were built to to meet a particular need, and I think as a campus my old place of employment, the University of Southern Indiana, was doing a pretty good job of evolving in that way, right? Whether that was building an online MBA program or having really strong online nursing programs or nursing and health professions programs, so there were pockets of places where we were doing a great job, I think, of kind of redefining what we were as an institution. The place where I'm at now, we are a traditionally aged residential campus. Now, having said all that, I mean, I think understanding the student experience and being able to still build programs that move and help students feel like they belong and they aren't just pseudo participating, I think is really important, and I think some places we're doing really well with that, and other places maybe we've missed the mark.

Kevin Thomas  
Our guests from last week's episode that will have aired Kent from Augustana. He did something that I really liked, and we talked about it a little bit on the show. These are the things I look back on when we have guests on them, say, "Man, we should ask more questions about this, but one of the things was, "What does that process look like from the moment you recruit a student through the experience? And I'll say, having a 17 year old son that is considering college options and what's occurring, and is going to take classes on my campus here this summer. It is an enlightening thing to be an administrator who oversees so many areas, and then is having a student go through the process. So, like him filling out his application was an interesting thing, because I've been a part of the team that was building that application, like my leadership was doing that, and so there were certain questions, he's like, what's this one mean, and I'm like, I don't know, let's put this for that one right there.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah.

Kevin Thomas  
And sometimes you don't know, but the thing that has hit me in the last week has been he's registered for classes, and then what?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Right,

Kevin Thomas  
Right, because, like, he's a concurrent, he's a dual enrollment student, like, type of person, like, and then what? And he's like, "Well, where do I get books? How do I log in? It's an online course, so what do I do? And it's like, "Oh, there's a student success thing we're missing here, right? And so it's like I'm seeing. That from my high school student taking classes here as a visiting student, this, this, this, this summer, but it's one of those things that thinking about the work that every student needs to have from us as an institution can be so overwhelming that we're like, well, this, this really works for all, right, whatever it is. This office being open eight to five, oh, they can contact us on email. Oh, if they're interested, they can scan a QR code. Like, it's there's got to be more of a care and dedication and wraparound support than there currently is for students that are coming to our campuses from all walks of life.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I've been trying to think about this. I've been pretty fortunate here in the last year to hear these two men speak multiple times, once at the Midwest First Year Conference and once at an all institute that Dr. Lisa Lawless and Angel Howard, Dr. Angel Howard, on our campus put together Dallin Young and Bryce Bunting. They've written this great book about transitions, and they talk about the difference between participation and pseudo participate participation, and I was thinking about that as it related to student experience, but I was also thinking about this as it relates to our work as administrators and, and campus folks, too, so like our students are really hyper connected, they're anxious, they've got a lot of different things, they're getting information, and from everywhere, you know, I even say this in my, in my talk, when I speak to parents and students, is the amount of resources available to you now to be successful is greater, I think, than it's ever been before. But saying that doesn't connect students to those resources, right? We don't really, if we really want students to be participants in this process, real participants, we have to help them think about what are the things that are important to me? Like, I go through, or I was thinking about this. I went through the orientation process in 1989 and I was trying to think what was the most important thing to me at that point. And the first thing was classes, obviously. I kind of thought about that experience and getting registered, but the other thing was really like my mom was so worried that I wasn't going to have a job, and so I remember when the dining folks came up, and they talked for four or five minutes, and said they were going to be in their place, and you could come and talk to them, and get a job, and get your schedule. So I just remember making sure before I left, my mom's like, "You got to meet with them and make sure you have a job when you come in the fall, you know. So you go in, you give them your schedule, they gave you the hours, and then you know, they told you you're going to make $3.05 an hour. Yes, gang, that's how much I made in my first job when I was a freshman, and that was a really important piece, right? I didn't, I didn't at the time, I mean, maybe counseling would have been helpful to me, but that wasn't a pressing need, or you know, like I didn't have a disability that time, so it wasn't a pressing need, and so I think through these processes we have to help students reflect on what are the things that they're going to need, and how can we help them navigate that, not just in orientation, but even when they arrive in ways that are meaningful and show a real, a real culture of care, and put them in spaces where they can reflect on that, and then help them understand what they need to do to get what they need, like building.

Kevin Thomas  
And do you think, like, or do you think orientation programs, and onboarding, or welcome weeks, or whatever it is that a campus has, is really doing that anymore? Because I'm sitting here reflecting on it, and again I say, I think a large majority of our campuses are having that occur for the 18 to 20 year old.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And maybe not very well at that sometimes.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, you're not wrong, and because what you're, what your point is going to get to here, and I would imagine is that we all do things that are a checklist of how our campus culture is, and so all of a sudden it's well, this person needs to talk, and this person needs to talk, and this person needs to talk, and this person needs to talk, and no one ever says what did the students and their families actually need to hear, yeah.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, what's the real goal for the student, and every student has a different individual goal, and part of it is helping students kind of explore what their individual needs are going to be I think.

Kevin Thomas  
I remember sitting down when I worked at a previous institution with two friends, Kara Shustrin, who worked in student affairs, Ryan Downey, who worked in admissions, I was working in student success at the time with retention work, and I said, Okay, Ryan, for your orientation, what is the learning objectives? What do you hope the outcome is? And then for Kara, who ran Welcome Week, what are your learning outcomes, and the amount of overlap that was there was so heavy, yeah. Yeah, and it's, it's not necessary. Like, why are you hitting them over the head with the same information? If it's an institution of higher learning, treat them as if they learned something.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I was listening to a podcast today about what's her name, you, you ought to know the song 'You Ought to know by Alanis Morissette, right, where they go through this song, and, and one of the things they were talking about, so what were you 15, maybe, when that song came out? I was 25 but it was right at the eve of the internet, and, like, aside from Hooty and the Blowfish, maybe, and now, and Alanis Morissette, it's some of the last monoculture timeframes, where people are like, where were you when you heard, when you heard that song for the first time, and people can still answer that question, like, if you're my age or maybe your age, there's only one way to get to that song, it was either through music videos on MTV or or really hearing it on the radio, and that monoculture word kind of really hit me hard, because we don't live in a world like that anymore. There isn't a singular one moment. I mean, maybe most people can remember where they were on 911 but if we think about how many different ways students can be connected. It's just astronomically challenging, I think, for colleges and universities to do it well, but I think starting, starting with the idea that there is an opportunity is really important, and then figuring out what do you do to make the best of that opportunity. And how do you help students make the best of those, those opportunities to participate in our space at the institution.

Kevin Thomas  
And what are those outcomes?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes.

Kevin Thomas  
We really.. I feel like, and I don't know, Brody, you tell me there was a period of time, and I would have said, like, 1015 years ago, where every conversation you had on things you're going to implement, it was what are your learning objectives, what are your learning outcomes, and I feel like unless your assessment heavy, a lot of that is stopped.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah.

Kevin Thomas  
And maybe that's the seats we sit in, and but I don't think so, because I really do feel like learning outcomes have to be a greater focus, and so when we're talking about these experiences of the traditional student experience, and is it a myth there isn't? Well, what do you want the outcomes to be? Yeah, we've made some hard.. I was taught, like, I was telling you, I was having this conversation with my associate director for preview and orientation today, and we've been connected to our person in University College who's overseeing advising, Brian Aiken, and Corey, and Brian and I have had a couple conversations, and even, even as we talked today, and as I talked with Corey this afternoon, you know, even with advising.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
We've made some changes to advising, and students are seeing their advisor in advance of attending orientation this year for the first time at Illinois State University, and I would argue that we did a great job with advising prior to this change, and students were cared for, they got registered, but was it pseudo participation or real participation? You know, if we believe that advising is a high-impact practice, is the way that we were doing it last year better than the way we were doing it this year? And I would argue that giving a student a 45 minute individual appointment with the advisor meets the goals of what we think advising should do better than the way that we were doing it. I think in both instances students left our campus feeling okay, but in this new iteration, I think the advisors are developing a better relationship with the student. They understand it's important, the student gets individualized attention that's much longer than they were getting in the previous experience, and so you mentioned outcome, right? One of the outcomes for me is that students understand the importance of that relationship, and now we've committed time to that relationship in my mind, and so that's one big difference, and it really makes the student a participant, they're not just acting like they're a part of this process, they are a part of it. So I feel good about that change, especially as I reflect, not theoretically, but even practically. 

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, you said something in it that I think is what we need to strive for, and maybe this will transition us to a final three as we wrap up this just us episode, students leaving campus after an orientation experience or the traditional experience they're having. We want it to be more than okay.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes.

Kevin Thomas  
And that's why we are constantly evaluating what that experience is. It is on our campus, what those. Outcomes are how we're doing the work, because students and their families are investing in an education that matters, that is the story, that is the truth, and if those things are our truth, and how we move forward, gotta be better, and okay, and that's the work that we're doing, and so, whether it is still a traditional student experience or it is a different experience than you and I did not that long ago. See how it made us young there.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Aw.

Kevin Thomas  
Striving for better than okay has to be what is that value that students and their families are expecting from our institutions.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, and though I think the great news is, as long as administrators and institutions are willing to reflect and evaluate and assess and try new things, I think we have a better chance of getting it right. That's really important, and I feel really good about what Illinois states tried to do in that regard, what my area has tried to do it, and I'd say you can't do that without good campus collaboration. So, it's taken a lot of work to kind of get campus to even think a little bit differently about it, and I have felt really refreshed here that folks are willing to kind of go on this journey with us to try to make a better experience, and so that's been that's been really great. And my sense, Kevin, is that your team is willing to do the same things.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, I think they really are. And then that's what we're gonna keep striving for. So, listeners, you keep striving for it, keep going, fight the good fight.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes.

Kevin Thomas  
Speaking of the good fight, it's our top three.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Oh, my

Kevin Thomas  
Top three misconceptions about orientation in higher education. Do you have three of these, Brody?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Well, I do. They might be the same three you have, but

Kevin Thomas  
Fire away.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I think the first misconception is, is that students need, and parents and family members need to leave knowing everything they need to know, they're just not going to remember anything.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, maybe.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
10% And so I think we have to really identify what the goals are for us, like what do we, what do we want students to get?

Kevin Thomas  
Okay, that's good.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Family members to get, that's I think the biggest misconception. I don't know that I have more.

Kevin Thomas  
Oh, I have some. Here we go.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I mean, that it should.. I mean, there's a misconception, maybe that it shouldn't be fun. I think it should be fun.

Kevin Thomas  
Okay, all right. Here are my three. I think I'm gonna have four. We'll go, we'll see. Misconception is that orientation is just a social icebreaker event.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Oh, that's terrible.

Kevin Thomas  
It's not. There's learning, there's outcomes. We've been talking about that. There's integration into this, the institution. There's navigating the campus. There's a lot that happens, and so I think there's this thought that it's kumbaya that sit around the campfire and everybody's gonna get to know everybody, that's the only purpose. And it's like, nah, that's not true. My second one is, is that orientation is a one-time event before classes start. I come to orientation in late May, early June. I'm done, and I really think if you do orientation right, it is part of your onboarding experience. What I was talking about, orientation connects to welcome week, welcome week connects to the first year experience that they're going to have. All of those things matter.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And I'd even go further back and said recruitment efforts need to reflect those things to. 

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, and this is one I think that's there too. Orientation is for only traditional first-time students.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes.

Kevin Thomas  
Hashtag false.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
False.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, I mean transfer students. I mentioned my son, everybody needs a little support in that process, and it's not just for first-time students. So, those are my three misconceptions. And then the fourth one would be, and I haven't done this in a while at orientation, I do this all the time for recruitment events. If, as an administrator, you give out your cell phone, your personal cell phone, at these events, and I've done this for 20 years, probably.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You have?

Kevin Thomas  
Oh, yeah, like I do it all the time.

Speaker 1  
Wow,

Kevin Thomas  
I'm gonna tell you, in 20 years, let's see if it's true. Yeah, 20 years, I've been called less than 10 times. Oh, my ever. Now I may have got more than 10 text messages, but less than 10 times, and one of the times was for Western Kentucky University. Once I had already started working at SIUE, and the person just had my number down, and they were like, 'We don't remember what you said that this was, but we remember you said if you need something, give us a call, and I got them connected with the right resource, but that's it, right? Like, they just want somebody to go. And connect with.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I, you know, you gave four and I gave two, that's really six, three and three, but I was thinking about one of,

Kevin Thomas  
Hold on, tell me some more about math.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You leave me alone, Kevin, what I was really suggesting is, is that we've hit our quota, right? We're good there, but I did think of one other thing, and to me, maybe we've hit at it, but it is more than a singular event, like it is about creating a culture, and I think that you, that's a campus responsibility, not an orientation office responsibility, and so many times I've worked on campuses where folks are like, this isn't really my gig, I don't have to worry about this, and I think if you're on campus and you're seeing new students, you're responsible, right, just as much as anybody else. Agreed, so to me it's more than event, it's really creating a culture that is, that is embodied by the entire campus, right.

Kevin Thomas  
Well, and part of our culture is we've come to the end of the show, which means you got to wrap this up for us, my man.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, so that does it for this episode of the pickup meeting. We hope all of your meetings, whether formal or pickup style, are as fun and as meaningful as this one. Until next time, gang, let's just do good and be nice. How about it?

Kevin Thomas  
Be nice, you. And away we go. Welcome back to the pickup meeting. No minutes will be taken, but plenty will be wasted. I'm Kevin Thomas, and with me is Brody Broshears. But do you know, Brody, today's my birthday? I'm 4646 I know, God, only nine more years till I catch how old you are right now.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
It's all downhill from there, Kevin. I'm telling you, it doesn't get any better than 46.

Kevin Thomas  
I understand mathematically. I have been closer to 50 than 40 for quite some time, six months, whatever you want to say, timeframe. I get that, but there's a significance of turning 46 where you're like, son of a bitch, right? Like, I don't know, like you're just getting closer to 50, you know? Like, in, and as you get older, there's certain numbers that hit, and listen, for anybody that's 50, you're gonna say, oh, now he's making fun of the old people again. I am not making fun of the old people again, I am just saying that none of us look at and say, you know what, I can't wait to do, turn 50, get closer to 50, get old.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I'll tell you what, I used to, I've always loved birthdays in the sense that every year you have a birthday is another year you're living. Oh, my birthday, I don't really like my birthday, I'm getting too old. I'm like, you're alive to celebrate every birthday,

Kevin Thomas  
that's right. And on a previous episode of the show, you said that I was getting you closer to 70, and so therefore, therefore, I was killing you.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, yeah, I hope to be alive in 2040 and retired happily.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, I hope you're alive in 2048 too, and also retired. I don't think you're going to make it that much further before you say deuces and retire anyway. Like, I think as soon as you can humanly do it, you're going to do it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I would love to do that. I think that is true.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, I get that.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Do you have a special birthday tradition, like, what are you going to be doing?

Kevin Thomas  
My son and I are going to go on a trip. Oh, actually, awesome. We leave on my birthday, and we're going to head to Memphis and do some museums, and maybe take in a game. I haven't even looked at the schedule, but there's some food places, and some he likes to go to thrift shops and gaming shops, and so we're going to hit one of those in Memphis as well. And then the day after that, we're going to do the next two or three days, I got to think of a calendar in Nashville, Tennessee, and spend some time in Nashville and do similar type of things, and do some museums, and just take in the sights, and drivable from Conway, Arkansas, and flying right now is kind of expensive, and so you know, just want to not that driving is a lot cheaper right now. Thanks for dollar gas prices,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
$5 gas prices. What are we talking about?

Kevin Thomas  
Oh, that's right, you. In Illinois, it is of an Illinois. That's terrible. Hey, it's 397 down here. Come on and visit

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
390 It was 399 in Evansville here recently too. But up here, man, we're getting killed.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, it's a lot. But no, so just spending time with him will be great. And I have one of these birthdays, that is either you love it or you hate it, and we all have birthdays that we would throw into this in some way, but my birthday always falls within three to five days, or exactly on Father's Day, and and so we'll also be together on Father's Day, which is nice to extend that that time frame,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You're getting cheated, like they could double dip. Golly, that stinks.

Kevin Thomas  
I know it usually has meant two gifts, and so I'm always appreciative of that, and, and not that gifts are paramount, but it's.. it does feel like, especially when it falls right on that date, I always feel a little cheated out of that opportunity, and I always felt bad too, because it would fall on that date for my dad, and then it's my birthday, right? So it's his day and my birthday, it just.. it's.. it's a lot.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Two ties is what we're saying, you're going to get two ties instead of one.

Kevin Thomas  
When was the last time you bought a tie?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Dude, I.. I don't remember. I.. I don't.. wow, that's a great.. it's a long time.

Kevin Thomas  
I think the last time I bought a tie was probably at Kohl's, and it was probably because I saw something that said it was 70% off or 80% off, and so it was maybe a buck 50, right, and and so it's like okay, but other than that, I can't remember buying a tie in the last 10 years, no, that's probably not true, probably seven eight years,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I think I had one of my admins at the University of Southern Indiana, she was amazing, Susie Schrader. She bought me a tie on boss's day one year, and it was wonderful, beautiful. And I still wear that tie, but I think that's the last tie I can remember getting.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, I feel like for a lot of campuses that's gone away. I will wear some on board meeting days, but outside of that, I don't wear a lot of ties.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Geez, this wasn't in the script, but man, it's got me flummoxed. I was.. I don't think I've bought a tie in 15 years.

Kevin Thomas  
Well, you know, here's something. So recently I was asked to speak and provide the welcome at Arkansas Boys State, I don't know if you know the Boys State program, if you're familiar with it, Brody, but like in the summer of junior year, the American Legion in states throughout the country puts on an event where juniors, they're going to be seniors, men, young men, are invited to come and do mock government and

Unknown Speaker  
Aw.

Kevin Thomas  
I did different interactions, and I did voice as a

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, as a 17 year old after my junior year in Illinois. Matter of fact, I won a scholarship, an Oracle scholarship. I had to give a speech at 17 in front of the entire delegation, but I was doing this welcome for it, and I was thinking about this because I showed up and I was asked to do it, and they said, "Hey, come do the welcome, this and I'm like, okay. So I show up, and I'm in UCA gear, because I'm giving a welcome from UCA. I have I have black pants on, and a black, like polo-ish shirt that's got UCA logo and my name tag, and I don't know anything about the script. I'm just.. I was told to come do a five minute welcome, and I walk into this is going, I walk into the green room, and Congressman French Hill from Arkansas is in the green room, he's the keynote, and he's got his jacket on and his boots and all the things, and I'm like, all right, well, I'm not dressed for this moment.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I've made a mistake.

Kevin Thomas  
No one told me, so I'm owning the fact that at least I look UCA, but I'm sitting on stage and it's Lynn Cotton, who's the congressman, Tom or Senator Tom Cotton's father, Congressman French Hill, me and this American Legion like important person, and all of a sudden I'm looking at her room, I'm like, you know, I don't have a tie on, I don't have a jacket on, but no one else in this room does either, and I think 10 years ago that would have not been the case, the closest was the congressman having on a jacket, but you have these dignitaries in various forms of life, and I just think that that's such a culture change that's happened in our world, that you just don't see the tie. Yeah, this was not on our script, but here we are.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Do you remember we were talking about this, maybe a couple episodes ago? I've, when Covid hit, like, I spent my time looking for the perfect sweatpant, and that's what I spend I. I mean, I'm looking for joggers, like, what's the best jogger? I found something at Old Navy, a couple of this this past spring. I bought, like, three pairs of this jogger, because it's amazing, and hardly any money spent on it. But finding a good jogger is really important post-COVID time now.

Kevin Thomas  
So, when you go, let's say, okay, your jogger, right? Like, when you go to the movies,

Speaker 2  
oh,

Kevin Thomas  
Do you typically.. what do you wear to the movies? Do you have on a jogger to the movies, like you're out and about, or like.. like what I always struggle with this, that I know what professional Kevin looks like and what he wears, and some people might say professional Kevin's not too professional, but I know what I wear to work, I know what I wear when I'm at home and just going to sleep, but like there's these things that come up, like what do you wear to the movies? I went and saw the Mandalorian and Grogu movie, Baby Yoda, if you will. I'm not going to do the formal name, I don't know him that well, but Baby Yoda, and I had on a Disney shirt, because I had on one of the jerseys, or whatever, that on the back says "May the force be with you, and I thought, well, that's pretty themed, but where else am I going to wear that shirt? And so, yeah, like, what do you wear?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Well, I mean, I'm old, Kevin, right, 55 and my birthday is not until October.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, it's not my birthday today. It's Kevin Thomas's birthday today. Like, let's not take away from that.

Kevin Thomas  
That's right. This is my day. They were only going to talk about things that we weren't supposed to talk about. Keep going on that.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
We're off the rails. It's great. I love it.

Kevin Thomas  
So off the rails, folks. Like, listen, we don't do a lot of scripting, but there's nothing that we've talked about that we were supposed to be, except that it's my birthday,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
so air conditioning is always the thing, and it's always freezing in the movie theater, so

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
not bringing a blanket, and I usually wear sandals. I love going and feeling comfortable, like I'm watching a movie at the house, so a good sweatshirt, pair of shorts in the summer is probably what I'm going with, and then sandals. Sometimes my feet will get cold and I'm not willing to bring a blanket in, but I'm very comfortable. I was thinking about this, you know, on Saturdays, the farmers market, I walked to the farmers market and you were like, what do I wear, and I'm like, I look like I got out of bed, probably right, lots of color, mismatched shorts, long sleeve T-shirt, I pop a hat on, some sneakers, but I have a lot of color in my outfits, generally, and usually I don't look, you know, I'll wear those joggers that have pockets, I need zip pockets now, it feels like I don't like going out without zip pockets, or or I need to be wearing jeans or dress pants if I'm not going to have zip pockets. Yeah, I get it. I get it. Have you been to movies recently? I mentioned I hadn't. You mentioned Mandalorian, and we went to the movies this weekend with Catherine's sister, and she's not a big Star Wars person, or we just decided we were just going to eliminate that from the from the choices, and we went to Sheep Detectives, which is getting great reviews, and it was fantastic. I loved every second of it. So fun, so fun.

Kevin Thomas  
I'm going to see it. Matter of fact, I think I'm going to see it tonight, but I'm going to see it. I'm excited about it, but I told you at the beginning of the year I have a goal of like 30 movies this year.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah,

Kevin Thomas  
and I don't know that I'm on pace for 30 movies, but it's about to sneak up. Summer is a great time to go to the movies, because it's nasty, it's all the things, and so, but there are movies coming up, and I'm excited about Toy Story, that's coming up.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah,

Kevin Thomas  
And listen, you can't take the Disney out of me. I'm excited about Toy Story. Let's think of their movies, they're coming. Oh, live action Moana, I'm gonna go see it, right? Lin-Manuel doing music, live action Dwayne Johnson, The Rock. I'm gonna go see that.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Pressure looks good to me. The Steven Spielberg movie that's coming out looks great, kind of the sci-fi movie. I'm looking forward to that. Maybe you know, Kevin, we were talking about this. My wife and I, we love going to the movies, but, man, it's dying. There was nobody in the movie theater when we went the other day.

Kevin Thomas  
He man is coming to the movies, and I'm mentioning that because there was a guy that was sitting in front of us at the movies, and if you're listening to our podcast, I'll be surprised. But there was a guy the other day, and the He-Man promo is on, and it gets to the part where he puts the sword up and says, you know, I have the power, right? And, like, he is doing that in the theater, and I'm like, oh, this guy's gonna be great. And then he spent bigger portions of the next two hours, while we're in the theater, turning on a cell phone, because whoever's talking to him on Facebook Messengers. Way more important than the movie that we're all paid to sit in. Oh, this, you're talking about movie experience. This is the thing that's killing it for me. Like, I get it, where it's like it's a different experience. People aren't going, but like no one will disconnect. You can put lounge chairs in theaters, you can do all the things.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
But like food, the beer, yeah,

Kevin Thomas  
All of it, and then you got people that just want to have their cell phone out because they can't get away for two hours.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Cat and I were talking. I think movie theaters are going to be like drive-in theaters in 20 years.

Kevin Thomas  
I like that.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
They'll be there, won't be very many of them, and it's just going to be that. That's kind of where we've gotten. It's not a community experience anymore. People just want to watch at home.

Kevin Thomas  
Oh, I see what you're saying. I, they're going to be extinct. I thought you were gonna go back to drive-ins.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
No, they're gonna go away. Like, I mean, I asked that question, you kind of ignored me, but maybe it's because it's your birthday, and I'll give you a little grace, because it is your birthday.

Kevin Thomas  
It's my birthday.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I haven't bought you anything yet. I got to get, I got to get that sorted.

Kevin Thomas  
I know I kind of ruined some things with that a few years ago for you and I, and I promise folks we're going to talk higher ed at some point, but I kind of ruined that at some point, because we've been friends for a long time, but we've never been like gift friends, like no things that we do, where it's it? I saw something, and it was like $3 and thought you would like it. What did I get you? Was it like a Dan Marino,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
yeah,

Kevin Thomas  
thing, or Bob got a little

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
action figures, and I'll send you pins from time to

Kevin Thomas  
time, yeah, stuff like that, just random, and then we happened to be together on your birthday, and in Disney, and I saw a hat, and I was like, I think Brody would really like this for his birthday, and then I changed the momentum, it's like, oh, son of a biscuit, we really have to like do some things now, and I screwed it all up,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
it's that it's that black Nike hat that has just a small little Mickey, God, it's fantastic. I love it. You're welcome. Dang, such a good giver of gifts, Kevin. I got to get myself sorted for you. You do. Let's go step it up. It's my birthday. Well, let's talk about higher. We were talking about, you know, we were getting ready for the annual conference, and I'm helping chair the state conference, Illicata. We were talking about professional development, think about the summer, you know, and what do people do for professional development, and we've talked about this before, but I don't think we've ever really dug in, right? We think about professional growth in higher education, we automatically, I think, in the advising world, we think of the annual conference, right? That's what that's kind of the default, and we budget money to go, and people get really excited, but, man, professional development is a lot more than attending annual conferences. Yeah, and we wrote in our yet to be published article, we'll see if it gets accepted, but we did write one, me, you,

Kevin Thomas  
and Matt Markin on how taking the conference interaction and stretching it beyond the conference is an important thing,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
yes,

Kevin Thomas  
and so this is our way of saying, hey, Nakata, accept that publication, it's true. Yeah, we're just, we're just asking politely, but you know, I think conferences are great for networking, conferences are great for experience, conferences are great for learning, but I don't know that people automatically embrace professional development beyond conferencing, and in the seats that we sit in, I think sometimes we tend to put that as an afterthought, and people are like, well, I'd like to develop here, and like, develop there, and, and I really want to get to a better place of encouraging, especially as budgets are getting tighter, and folks are concerned about money and time away from family, and all the things that are there that you focus on the ability to do things on your campus, and I will say I've been really fortunate here recently at The Citadel at University of Michigan at Virginia Tech to be a keynote for on-campus professional development opportunities that they've had, where they bring people in from the outside. Listen, I'm bringing you to our campus in July. I'm excited about that, but it's with purpose, and I think you get an opportunity to do things with greater purpose when you embrace professional development beyond conferencing to fit the needs of your team as a whole.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I think you know, in many instances, even annual conferences, the goal should be to what can I do to solve a local problem, or to deal with what can I learn that's going to help me in my work back at my campus, and sometimes the best. Way to deal with that is to kind of think about what kind of opportunities exist on my campus for development, which ways can I get involved. I know we have a lot of advising, is a relatively young profession now, right? A lot of our advisors are less than three years in the field, that's a pretty big portion of NCATA membership, and so not all of those folks get to go to annual conferences, so taking advantage of what an institution has to offer. I'm so impressed with Illinois State. We have LinkedIn Learning, we do a lot of.. we have in our advising community, we have a professional development training group, and I think taking advantage of those kinds of opportunities, and even, and even giving advisors a chance to share expertise out, to me is a really great way to think about professional development in the advising community.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, and I like the theming of things I'm thinking about for when you're coming to campus here soon, you know. I think that the constant that higher education is facing right now is a lot of negativity on value and purpose. Yeah, but then also a lot of balancing the difficulties of shrinking state support, shrinking federal support, and that's causing institutions to have to do things that haven't been the norm. You know, I know on our campus this year we're not going to have a cost of living adjustment, a COLA increase, and so I'm worried about general happiness of how folks are doing. So one of the reasons why you're coming to campus, and I'm sure there'll be other things that come from it, is to kind of talk about some of that meaning making and happiness and the work that that they do, and how happiness is not determined by the things like that, and that it is a bigger equation of things, and so when you're able to theme things in a certain way, I think that that allows for development to be done with purpose and not just by happenstance.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I mean, we, we really know what motivates folks. I mean, it's pretty clear, you know, mastery, autonomy, and purpose, that's what Dan Pink talks about in Drive, and I use that a lot in my, in some of my talks, and so, you know, we all want to get better at stuff, and we all want to be able to do the things that we really are good at doing, and we want to build, we want to do both of those things in the way that really allows us to meet the goals of our work, right, or of our association and their goals, and, and so to me, you know, thinking about professional development in that way can be really valuable. One example that I would use that I think is a great was a great development opportunity, and got really, I mean, my folks were so mad at me when I made them do that. It was, we did some peer observations of advising appointments, for example.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
and what a great opportunity to learn, and my folks initially were just like, I hate your guts, bro. Do this, how dare you? I know how to do this work, and I'm like, yes, I understand, but to grow we should see other ways to do it, and it was amazing once we, you know, decluttered that from, say, evaluations, and said, "Look, the goal is to learn to do this better. How can we do it? And once people had a chance to do that, it just was amazing. I've never thought about this approach, or I've never asked this question. Gosh, you're doing this thing really, really well, like talking about the general education program, or you asked this question that really led to some great conversation. I'm going to use that, like that's development, we don't think about it that way, but

Kevin Thomas  
it is. Yeah, and

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
so that doesn't cost anything, it just, it just is about a willingness to want to learn and get better at the work.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, and I think about the organic things that can happen too, and that goes outside of our role in embracing the work that our teams can do. I think about Claire Tober, and I don't think it was just her. I think there were a couple people in my advising staff that wanted to focus on mental health and well-being of our students, and so they did research, they did work to kind of say this is how we can do a better job as an advising team, them presenting that to their fellow colleagues. Yes, way more effective than me doing anything for

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
it,

Kevin Thomas  
way more effective. I think the advising team here has a book club, those interactions to on a meaningful topic, and just interacting is development that I can't manufacture, because people would say, "Why are you requiring me to meet or requiring me to read this book? They picked it out, they went through it, they worked through, through those, those, those work, through those words, and through that work, and really found meaning from what they were doing, and those are. Wonderful organic experiences. Yeah, I think even as supervisors we could ask good questions. What do you want to learn more about? What's a topic that you really have a lot of passion for that you could share out to other advisors? I know that when I go to annual conferences, one of the things that's frustrating to me, I'll ask people, you know who they are and what they do, and so many times folks will say, well, I'm just an advisor, and I'm like, nobody's just an advisor,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
you know, and there's so much expertise in that world that we can share at really low cost, and when we do that, I think people have a chance to develop on my campus. The other place where that happens is folks want to be involved in spaces outside of their direct areas, and I think trying to find ways to facilitate those opportunities is another way to be good stewards of professional development. And so I think in instances where that can happen, I've tried to promote that.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, did you feel like you do a good job of selling the importance of it? We talk about telling our story. I know that you have a new boss, and at this moment, do you feel like you do a good job, or you have to do a good job of conveying why that's important, or do you feel like professional development, whether to conferences or not, is valued.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I think what I try to do is lead by example, but, but I think certainly engagement works best when you have the conditions that we've talked about, right? You know, people are able to recharge, people are people feel good about the work that they're doing, they understand that their work is important, and they have the tools to do the work well. To me, that's the start. Right, good engagement leads to better development. From my perspective, I do often, with my leaders, share articles. You know, I just shared an article today about the joy of learning, right? Have we forgotten about the joy of learning in higher education? And, and it kind of built on a discussion about what is the purpose of higher ed that we talked about in our retreat through some deliberative dialogs and it's just an add on but I share those articles all the time and I just think that it's really valuable to kind of say I'm reading these things I'm thinking about this stuff and I think good employees should be thinking about this stuff too

Kevin Thomas  
you mentioned the recharging part of that, because I think a lot of folks put professional development in that recharge category, and I would just say realize that it doesn't have to just be professional development that does. Sure, you know, for a lot of administrators, including me, I feel a recharge from going to a conference, like, for sure. I think that's part of it, but I would say sitting in opportunities that provide student interaction are probably a greater recharge than anything I do, because I don't get as much of that as I used to get, and I think about that for my director of Admissions, she started in as a recruiter, and now she's Director of Admissions. Yeah, and sometimes you can see the overwhelmed moments of paperwork and process and travel schedules and all the things that she does, but I can tell when she's gone into a school and she gets to go recruit a student again, because you can see the recharge. Doing something different than your norm can be that professional development, doing something different than your norm can be that growth, that recharge that you want as well. Yeah, I think that that's

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
100% true. You know, you were, you were saying, do I do, do we do a good job of that? I mean, I think most people would look at me and say I really want engaged folks, right? I think most people would say Brody works to try to do that. I mean, there are always some folks who might not say that. I mean, some people don't like me, Kevin Thomas. I guess maybe that's a surprise to you. Maybe it's not.

Kevin Thomas  
It's always a surprise to me, how could they not like you? You're so delightful, and it's not necessarily

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
about being liked, but if people are unwilling to kind of think about things in a way that I think are really important, which is our job matters, our work matters, right? When we look at the engagement data through Gallup, a lot of folks don't automatically think about their work that way, but if you're willing to think about the work that way, I think it's easier to provide those opportunities. If you're not, it's tougher, and that doesn't mean you give up. And I think some of this is even generational, like I have found here recently that that younger group coming in now, I think the why really matters, and you know you're never done explaining why professional development is important. You're never done explaining why it might be useful to know how admissions and financial aid interact with our space. It may require. You to explain why it might be useful to know about what's the content in the beginning major courses of the areas that I'm advising, all of those things matter, but we have to help folks kind of move along in some instances. At least on the generational side, I have found that folks more my age, those Gen Xers, now I think it's a little easier sell than it is with our younger crew, and that's on supervisors. We have to figure out a way to do it, and I'm learning still and trying to do my best, but I think asking good questions can really matter. Like, what are you hoping to learn? What's something that you really are fired up about? And then letting people kind of move along with that is really good,

Kevin Thomas  
and I think making it a priority of your experience.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes,

Kevin Thomas  
that's a priority of your leadership. I think that's all you can really ask for,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
which you have to be willing to give people the time to do it too. Like, that's the other piece. Advisory jobs are hard.

Kevin Thomas  
You're right,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
and we can say one thing, but if we don't give people the time to kind of really live in that development world, then then that's on

Kevin Thomas  
us, that's right, and it's on us to get to our top three, and for our top three, I'm going to Audible, am I the top three birthday gifts you're going to get me this year, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, we were talking professional development, and we've done this before, where we talked our favorite cities that we've been to for a conference, and

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
yes,

Kevin Thomas  
and I remember, you know, reflecting back on some of my favorite, Nashville, San Antonio, Orlando, those are some favorites in my mind, but today it is our top three locations for a Nakata or any professional development conference that has not yet been a part of your professional experience? What would those three be? Brody brochures. Dang,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
well, I think I love the Northwest, and Portland was fantastic in 2022 one of my favorite spaces for sure.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
so I would say Seattle. I don't think we've had a conference in Seattle, an annual conference in Seattle.

Kevin Thomas  
I'd like to do that one. Yeah,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I know we've done a region conference in Columbus, Ohio, but the good Midwesterner in me says let's get an annual to Columbus, because I really enjoyed my region conference there.

Kevin Thomas  
I did a conference in Columbus within the last year, and I will say Super Clean City, also home of Nationwide.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Oh my, I didn't..

Kevin Thomas  
I know all I could think was Peyton Manning and Brad Paisley commercials nonstop, because Nationwide is on your side, not a sponsor.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And then I think selfishly, like, I, I'm not out on the West Coast that much. I don't think we've done an annual in San Diego, that would be fun.

Kevin Thomas  
San Diego's such a great city,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
or something crazy like Alaska would be fun too.

Kevin Thomas  
You know,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I don't know what city I'd choose, Fairbanks, Juneau, like they're only like, yeah, I don't know that they have a space big enough to house us, but San Diego would be maybe the my third one. So, those are my three: San Diego, Seattle, Columbus. Let's go.

Kevin Thomas  
You know, there's always this argument of certain cities, and people either love or hate in a lot of ways, where for Nakata, they say Vegas and Orlando have to happen every, within every 10 years, because you get the biggest attendance of those, and I don't disagree with that, but I went to a NASA conference for financial aid in San Diego, and I'm gonna tell you, folks were showing up because it was San Diego. Yeah, it was a delight. So, you're not wrong on your list, that's a good one to have.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And I didn't mention Canada, but, like, Vancouver would be awesome, Montreal would be awesome, both of those spaces would be fun. Maybe I want to edit my choice now. I've up to five.

Kevin Thomas  
Quebec, Edmonton. At this point, I'm just listing hockey towns in Canada, Toronto.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
There's been a region conference in Toronto. Great,

Kevin Thomas  
yeah,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
great.

Kevin Thomas  
All right, so my three here we go. I'm gonna, I'm gonna put this in, and I'm gonna ad lib a little bit. Boston is a city I've never been to, and I would just like there to be an annual conference. I know, so Boston is on my list,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
right?

Kevin Thomas  
I don't care what city, truthfully, don't care at all. I would like to go to Hawaii, and I think that an annual conference would do really well, or conference of any sort would do really well in Hawaii. I'm going to be Stephanie Craft Terry from Hawaii at this moment. Say the administrators institute that I'm no longer the chair of should be in Hawaii. How great I'm

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
in, as long as you keep me on as a faculty member. Let's go

Kevin Thomas  
right. And then I would say the last I had on my list was New York City, but I will also say conferences that don't have a smaller ability to have a smaller footprint, right, on things like if we were in New York City, be like being in Vegas, where you're in Vegas and everything else is in Vegas, and you don't see people, so I don't know that New York City is what is going to stand out there for me, so I'm going to say. You, I haven't done something in certain areas of Texas, right? Like, I've been to San Antonio, I've been to Dallas, but I've never been to Houston once. And so, let's go Houston for my third choice.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's awesome. I went to Houston to speak last fall, maybe 2024 It was awesome,

Kevin Thomas  
you're so famous.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I really enjoyed

Kevin Thomas  
it. Yeah, I think Houston would be a lot of fun. So, I, that's going to be on my list now. All right. Well, we did. We did pretty good today, I think. We did not crash and burn, because if we would have crashed and burned on my birthday, this would be the last pickup meeting.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I mean, happy birthday to you, Kevin.

Kevin Thomas  
Thanks, man. I'm

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
glad you're a year older, and you made

Kevin Thomas  
it. I, that means I'm a year closer to being near you.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah,

Kevin Thomas  
for this moment in time, I'm only nine years away, and not 10.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I mean, you made math a thing the last Jess Suss episode, so now I, you got to get the math thing right. I don't think it's how it works. You can't get any closer,

Kevin Thomas  
you're probably right, and we're not going to get into math skills again, because it was, it was interesting.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, well, that's it for this edition of the pickup meeting. We hope all your meetings, whether it's formal or pickup style, are as fun and as meaningful as this one. Until then, gang, let's just do good and be nice. How about

Kevin Thomas  
it? I why people watch the end of our episodes and watch them all.