Ep. 34 - W. Kent Barnds, Augustana College

Brody and Kevin sit down with W. Kent Barnds, Executive Vice President for Strategy and Innovation at Augustana College, for a conversation that zigzags from enrollment strategy to storytelling, from FAFSA frustrations to liberal arts value, and from Nebraska football loyalty to why innovation in higher ed is less about shiny new toys and more about smart combinations that actually matter.

Kent brings the heat on what makes strategic plans stick, why public thinking matters, how small colleges can compete in a noisy market, and why higher ed still has to stay deeply human in the age of AI. Along the way, the crew talks admissions essays, musical taste, red meat, Slate dashboards, and the old-person habits they have proudly adopted.

It’s thoughtful, funny, a little nerdy, and exactly the kind of meeting you actually want to be in.

*The Pickup Meeting is a spinoff of the Adventures in Advising podcast!

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Transcript

Kevin Thomas  
And away we go. Welcome to The Pickup Meeting, the meeting you actually want to be one be in and no one had to find a conference room. How about that Brody?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
It's pretty good.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, if I didn't stumble through it, gosh, I kind of blew it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You did kind of blow it.

Kevin Thomas  
I know I got real excited. We're recording on a Monday. I know you're listening audience on a Wednesday, because that's when these episodes come out, but it's a Monday, and I bet we haven't done but like, one or two of these ever.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
On a Monday? Yeah, that's probably true.

Kevin Thomas  
We do a lot on Friday, but not a lot on Monday. And I think it's going to be interesting to see what energy we bring.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I kind of like Mondays.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, why?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Well, I mean, it's just another day.

Kevin Thomas  
Is it?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
It's kind of the beginning of a great week, right? Like the beginning of your work week. There all the possibilities are there on Monday.

Kevin Thomas  
Such optimism. I like it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Positivity is my number one strength. That's what they say.

Kevin Thomas  
Is that really what they say?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
It is my strengths, my my strengths, quest or Clifton Strengths, whatever that is, positivity is number one.

Kevin Thomas  
Did you lie to it?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I didn't lie to it is yours. 

Kevin Thomas  
Not positivity. I know that.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
What's, what's your number one strength, my friend, do you know?

Kevin Thomas  
I don't know. It's been probably 20 years since I've taken that test and I remember that I had WOO.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
WOO is my number two. That doesn't surprise me.

Kevin Thomas  
I really have to look these up. This can be a topic for an episode later, because we should look this up, because now I'm really 20 years later, it's still applicable.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Well, I know my five because we kind of, we kind of roll over it here quite a bit adaptability, communication and arranger. Are my other three.

Kevin Thomas  
Oh, I think arranger might have been in mine. And then there's an f1 that's probably in there too, but I don't remember what that is.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
We're not allowed to say it.

Kevin Thomas  
Hey, listen, like it's this time of the year, right? We're like summer's happening, you know, we're doing all the things for work. We're doing all the things as far as outside of work, going on vacations, maybe doing things out and about. And I'll tell you, like my mind is set on, like the football season is not that far away. And I know it's terrible, but I'm just ready for it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I mean, football is great. I love watching football.

Kevin Thomas  
So like, when you think about this, and yes, folks, this is a sports segment we're moving to here.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
We can go quickly.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Only one right answer.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, no, that's false. Well, we'll see what your answer is, what football, offense and Leo hashtag dolphins, because they're terrible. I mean, they haven't always been terrible, but they're terrible. But they're terrible now. Do you find the most exciting to watch?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Look, I need a running quarterback. That's it like, I mean, I don't think you can win Super Bowls anymore, really, without a quarterback that's semi athletic, that can move around. And that's my favorite. It's my favorite offense right now, without a doubt.

Kevin Thomas  
And that's number one answer.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Your quarterback has to be able to move.

Kevin Thomas  
That's interesting. I tend to go because at one point in life, I was a fan of the greatest offense to ever walk the Earth.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
What is that?

Kevin Thomas  
The greatest show in turf?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Oh, yeah, right. Was wonderful.

Kevin Thomas  
Kurt Warner, like Isaac, Bruce Tory Hall, Isaac King, Marshall...

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I grew up a massive Dan Marino fan, right?

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That was a great Matt Moore, that was a great little segment of offense to, like, throw the heck out of the ball.

Kevin Thomas  
And I'm not saying your answer is wrong, but there was very little that could slow down that offense.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I mean, that's the kind of offense I want, I want us to throw, but I need that quarterback to be mobile too. Maybe that's not a maybe that's not a style, per se, but...

Kevin Thomas  
It's interesting that you refer to, like, quarterbacks that have to do that, and that's how you win Super Bowls. And I'm sitting here going, I cannot remember a single quarterback that really does that's won Super Bowls.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Mahomes, dork.

Kevin Thomas  
Did you just call me dork?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes, I did. Like the last I mean, have they won? They've been in like, three of the Jalen Hurts runs really well. Like, come on, what are we talking about?

Kevin Thomas  
I would say hertz runs well. I wouldn't say I think my homes does a lot of running.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You're crazy.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I'm

Kevin Thomas  
gonna give you some stats later on, just like I've been sending you all weekend on why LeBron is the worst. But that's me.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's a whole different topic.

Kevin Thomas  
A very needed one, I think.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
What about the like we were talking about this too, right? Like college admissions essays. Why did that topic come up?

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, so we don't do it, right? Like, I was on another show.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Very good.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, I was on another show recently, and they asked about significance of May 1 and and it'll be interesting when we talk to our guest today, because, you know, he and I are in similar worlds right now, I would say that he is far more the expert in that world, but he and I are in similar world. But when you talk about May 1, people come down to decisions and what's going on, and then they're like, Well, you know what's essay review like? And I'm like, I we don't do essay review now, I'll say we have essays for scholarships and different things and and all those. But like, we don't do it. But like, as you're sitting here now, Brody, 50 years, no, that's not true. 40 years from when you would have been sorry I made you really old. There for a minute. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I am pretty old, but not quite that old, yet.

Kevin Thomas  
40 years removed from when you would have been writing essays. What would you be writing about now?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I thought about this, and I would say I'd either have to write about the impact of music or the impact of running in my life, right? Like running has been something that's been in my life, pretty much since I was in high school, right as I was training for my last couple of years as a soccer player, and then I didn't run much during college and graduate years for whatever reason. But in my adult life, running has been a pretty big staple and really important to me. It's, it's every day, it's, it's kind of a constant, and it's just meant, you know, good fitness and but music's been really great to me too. Like, music never disappoints. Sports can disappoint music. Good music never disappoints. And so I think I'd write about something like that. How about you? What would you write about?

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, I think that. I think I would write about the unexpected aspects of life and just how the journey is not always that straight path.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah.

Kevin Thomas  
God, I feel like I could apply to some colleges right now.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, you could get in with that.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah. I think that, you know, I and I think that we all have that, right? We all have our adventures, we all have our journeys. We all have our trauma. We all have the things that have happened in our life that matter. And so I think a lot of people could write that essay, but I was a little surprised by your answer, because I think that you're saying running, right, but I think that yours is like, health and wellness and happiness, like, and you put that into the running tub, but like, when I look at it's like, Why do you run? Why? Why are you healthy? Well, because you had a stroke, right? Like, and so, like, and you were trying things before then, but like, that situation brought you to this one. And so I think yours is a larger picture. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Well, I mean, life is pretty interesting. I could write about, you know, the three years my dad spent in the nursing home right after covid That was pretty impactful in my life and informed me on a lot of things I could write about, I don't know, raising those two kids of mine that are doing pretty good.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, there was, there was a time frame a couple years ago where UCA had these scholarship essays for the top scholarship here on campus. And there's a particular year that we were having trouble getting people to volunteer with the scholarship committee to read these essays, because year one was not automated. Year one was tedious, and it went really poorly for the people that were reading that year. And it was a lot, and I would say this last year, or the last time I did this, I read about 700 of these things.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Oh my gosh.

Kevin Thomas  
And here's the thing about that, is what you're talking about, like, those are the stories that that linger and last, right? The things that are about, you know, the time you had with your dad, or the memories you had watching Cardinal baseball, or being able to talk Cardinal baseball, or the reasons for running, or the journey, the things that happened in my life that are part of, you know, my story. Those are the things that last, but the number of people that viewed their their essay as being profound, and it's like, Man, you've got some living in life to occur, either you're just not opening up and sharing yet, like those are the things that you know stood out.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I mean, it is, look, we're asking a lot of 17 year olds right to kind of think about something that's really impactful. They don't automatically know that yet, too. The question that we ask our Fellow Scholars, and I read about 16 of these every year because I interview 16 of these students. I've done that now the first three years that I've attended here, and our fell scholarship is like our big scholarship, right? And I think this year, we asked students, you know, one book, movie or a song that's had a distinct impact in your life, and why you. And you think you're just going to read, you think it's just going to be kind of, maybe it'll be aI generated, or maybe it's going to be kind of bogus and lame. And they never disappointed. It was always good for the most part. I mean, those essays were remarkable, and I'm always so surprised, right? Like how they get to the song that they've picked, or why they've picked a particular movie, but in almost every instance, there was such a good personal connection to the thing that they selected, I was I'm totally impressed every time I get in and a chance to read those.

Kevin Thomas  
I feel like we need to do that question on a future episode.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, it would be great.

Kevin Thomas  
I like it. That's it. Enrollment, folks that listen to the show send in your questions that use for scholarships, and we'll turn them into a segment in which we banter around and see what we come up with.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, thepickupmeeting@gmail.com right?

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, that's it. Hey, there you go. Nice transition.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Nice transition.

Kevin Thomas  
Hey, so let's go ahead, let's bring on our guest today. Yeah, this is somebody I've been aware of for a while, but only been connected with for a little bit. And I will say, as we welcome Kent to the screen, I appreciate people that are willing to put their thinking out in public and not just keep it inside. And Kent is somebody that we'll put it out in public. He may be saying, this is a bad thing. You're kind of shaking your head as we're talking about this. I think it's a good thing. Kent has done writing for Chronicle and Inside Higher Ed, and I think you were quoted in The Wall Street Journal. Is that correct? I think that's right. And this guy does it all. He's got opinions. He defends him, and his track record backs it up. And so I'm very excited to welcome Kent Barnds, Executive Vice President for strategy and innovation at Augustana College in Rockford or in Rock Island, Illinois, to our show. Welcome Kent.

Kent Barnds  
Well, thanks. It's great to be with you. I noticed that you didn't mention my fiery writing on LinkedIn during the fast but fiasco. Oh, there I there. I had some opinions. That's, that's for sure. 

Kevin Thomas  
You did. I think that's where I probably got to know you first. And it was like, wow, he is not holding back on what a dumpster fire this situation is. 

Kent Barnds  
Well, it's great to be with you guys. I'm really looking forward to the conversation.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
yeah, saying the quiet things out loud, I like that. That's good. Yeah. You oversee enrollment management, admissions, financial aid, communications and marketing. You lead the college's strategic planning efforts. You've been at Augustana a little over 20 years, and some significant institutional moments during that time, record enrollments, a $40 million philanthropic commitment, a new strategic plan, and you served as acting president of the college in 2012 right? So we're talking to a former president, Kevin. You want to be a president, don't you?

Kent Barnds  
If Kevin does want to be a president, I would encourage him to do so. My three months of playing President probably confirmed, in my mind, that I'm probably better at helping other people be great presidents than I would be at being a president myself. But it was great. It was really a unique opportunity. My boss, at the time, Steve balls, was taking a sabbatical. I talked to him twice during that period of time, because he was in the Arctic Circle, not my idea of where to go on a sabbatical. And He came back with the show and tell pictures of these ridiculous looking mosquito nets that they had to wear from you know, head to toe, because the mosquitoes in the Arctic Circle are like the size of third graders. But it was, it was a great experience to do that during that that time period, for sure.

Kevin Thomas  
I don't even know what to say. I feel like I'm going to spend the rest of my day googling large mosquitoes and...I didn't know that was a thing. I didn't either,

Kent Barnds  
yes, during the summer months. I mean, that's when it's when it's warmer there at that time. And they were very, very remote. And then when they did, show and tell Steve and Jane, his wife, when they came back, enormous, you know, mosquito netting, things on. So that's not my idea of paradise. They loved it. Great Adventure for them. Give me a beach.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, me too, Ken. I'm with you, and I'm the only person here that doesn't ever want to be a president. So that's good.

Kevin Thomas  
That's true. You do not, although I don't pretend that you are the president when you're so frustrated by all the decisions that other people made 30 plus years in admissions, enrollment, kid, that's a long time to do anything. What keeps you going? What keeps you interested in and what does year 30 look like that year three didn't

Kent Barnds  
Great question. Well, first of all, I really appreciated your discussion earlier and your discussion. Of student essays, I will say that still to this day, what excites me about this work is the potential impact that we have on students. I think of a student's journey to select the college or military service or vocational education, post high school is such an important moment to be involved in and to be able to do that, I consider it to be a great privilege. And when you see a students that spark in their eyes when they make a discovery that a place is going to be the place that they're going to call home for four years, it's an honor to be involved. So I'm still really energized by the work. In college, I studied political science, so I have kind of a different frame of this work. I always wanted to run campaigns on behalf of candidates, and I consider this work to be an extension of my study of political science. I've got to get 700 kids to elect this place every year, and it's a rush, and it requires lots of creative thinking and problem solving, and so it keeps me excited. What's the difference between three and 30, or when I first started, and 30 years, oh, man, you know the work is so different today than when I started on July 6 of 1992 at Elizabethtown college, I sometimes fondly recall, recall the manila folders that kept the high school files?

Kent Barnds  
You know, there'd be a handwritten directions to wherever the flagpole was, and you know the flagpole which doors you're going to go in. So much has changed. But what hasn't changed is, is the students, and the fact that we get to in our in our work, play a really important role in their development and decision making.

Kevin Thomas  
I love that so much. And part of that's because, well, when you saw Brody celebration here of another political science person, but also I am a massive fan of political dramas, and anyone that gets into election seasons, right? Like I said, Listen, the West Wing had really great seasons, but then, like, the the election as it ended, was two really great finishes that season. And I'm like, Man, I should run campaigns. And now you've given me the perspective that I am, right? I need to flip my mindset there, right? Like, I just all of a sudden, now I'm doing what I when I dream of.

Kent Barnds  
You are, I mean, they call it polling, we call it research, right? They call it candidate profile. We call it branding. You know, we're doing the same type of activity. We're going out there and introducing our candidate in high schools and college fairs and so on and so forth, and holding those events on our campuses. It's the same work.

Kevin Thomas  
It really is a lot Kent.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
yeah, it's great. I mean, Kevin, you and I have talked about the West Wing, and the problem I have now with watching the West Wing is it's pure fiction. It was, it was fictional, but it's not the way politics works anymore. It's like this idealized version of politics, and we're just, we're just long, far gone from that. I don't want to go any further. We'll stay away. Do you want to talk about politics? For me, let's do that right now. No, let's stop. Let's stop. But we can't, we can't talk about taking risks, right? And Kent, you've been a pretty public thinker. Kevin kind of mentioned that early on, right? Chronicle Inside Higher Ed, Wall Street Journal, LinkedIn, right? Most people in your role may stay internal, or they're they're not out there as often. What made you decide to put your thinking out there, and what's been the cost, or what's what has it given you over the years to kind of put yourself out there?

Kent Barnds  
What a what a great question. I really appreciate this question. I don't I don't know that I can point to the inspiration for for writing or engaging in the public discussion and debate. I do remember the very first piece that I had published in Inside Higher Ed was after I came to Augustana, and at the time NCAA, Division Three was contemplating splitting into two divisions. So I think I had entitled The piece similar to, you know, what is division four look like? And I was making an argument that division three, strength is its size and the diversity of types of places. And if we were really just going to try to duplicate a smaller version of Division Two, why even bother? And I got some really good feedback on that, and I think that probably served as some motivation and some inspiration. Question that you know, take maybe something that inside, people inside higher education know really well, but people outside higher education don't know. How can I make some connections? And I've tried to do that throughout. Also had a great piece published once upon a time about how you know that discovery series on crab fishing?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes, yeah,

Kent Barnds  
That it's a lot like college admissions. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Well, that's great.

Kent Barnds  
It was a piece, again, that got a lot of traction. Now I will say that there's also a cost, and I'll fess up to that. I wrote a piece once about the use of data and intelligence in college admissions, and this was when there was a scandal at the National Security Administration, and I talked about our use in higher ed, about FAFSA position, and what a great predictor it was. And I think that that piece probably was and this I have to be a little careful about, because if people misinterpret your writing, you haven't written very clearly. But I think that that piece was misinterpreted by some to think that colleges and universities were using FAFSA position to make admissions decisions.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Right.

Kent Barnds  
And what I was really talking about was the predictive analysis that was made possible by FAFSA position. So maybe there is some cost there, and then sometimes I have some unpopular opinions so, but I think we also have a responsibility to as leaders, to engage in public discussion and dialog about our work, which is why I wrote as much as I did about the FAFSA fiasco at that particular time.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I think that the responsibility piece, I think, is really important. It's interesting because I've even seen that presenting, right? I've presented on AI here recently. And you know, you go out there and you start talking about the potential benefits of AI, and there are a lot of folks that aren't really bought in, and they have opinions too. And so it is, it is a risk to put yourself out there, but I think it's the right thing to do in many instances. So bravo to you.

Kent Barnds  
Well, thanks. 

Kevin Thomas  
I also think it's important. I was thinking about this last night as I was, you know, thinking about the show today, that so much of the writing and narrative that's out there to me, and I realize you've spent time in multiple places, but we get a lot of East Coast, West Coast aspects of things, and so the flyover states. So be it that I've spent most of my career in, that you spent a lot of your career in, bro. Career In Brody. It's similar, right? I think that that story gets lost. And so I'm always appreciative of people that aren't on the east or west coast writing, because I think that becomes the only thing that's the truth. And so I do appreciate that that's the case. And some of that comes from your time as a Nebraska native, and so like, listen, we got to talk. We talked about a pre recording. I don't think we can let this go. No, right you, you are a believer. We talked about offense, and I'm going great a show in turf and the air corral offense, and you are just committed to the option offense be.

Kent Barnds  
Absolutely all in. Man, you got to have a quarterback who's versatile, who will run, who who can read the read what's happening, and run. I mean, give me Tommy Frazier, Turner Gill, give me Eric Crouch, anytime, anytime. And Eric Crouch not only could run throw the ball, but he also catch the ball. I mean, I love the versatility. I love the college Well, I have loved the college game. There's some there are lots of problems with the college game today, but I will take a running quarterback and the option any time.

Kevin Thomas  
I love it. And here's the thing, I love Nebraska faithful. I really do, like, I think about this all the time, because during the annual conference for Nakata that comes up, one of our good colleagues, Aaron Justina, is Nebraska as it gets and if you say anything, you curse them, and if you say anything good, and it's all because she asked the question, you know, it's but, like, deep down, right? There are teams I don't want to ever be good again, right? Like the Tennessee Volunteers, right? They can suck. Let's just say I don't want them to be good. Like, no one needs that much orange in their life. But like, what I believe, come at me, Tennessee fans.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You're gonna get in trouble, Kev.

Kevin Thomas  
But Nebraska, like it kind of like pull for because their fans are so insane, and so, like, there's a loyalty that's beyond loyalty. And so I appreciate that thought, and I appreciate that fandom a lot, but we'll have to agree to disagree on the offense. 

Kent Barnds  
My wife and I are about ready to celebrate our 25th anniversary, and Nebraska has not been good in the time that I've known my wife. And so that's, that's what's kind of sad about it, but it's still a great pastime, and something about which I'm always very interested and intrigued.

Kevin Thomas  
I went to...

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I liken it to Indiana basketball. Like Nebraska is one of those things, right? And I'm an IU grad, and Indiana's basketball team hadn't been to a Final Four since 2002 I mean, we've been good maybe one or two years in. In that time frame, we haven't been to a national championship game since 2002 and then prior to that, right 87 is our last national championship. So we're kind of living in past glory. Nebraska is doing that too.

Kent Barnds  
This is true.

Kevin Thomas  
I will say the last time I went to a Nebraska football game, let me say the only time I went to Nebraska football game. It was the big 12 Championship. The first big 12 Championship held in St Louis, at the TWA dome, and they played Texas, I think. But I remember the fandom being special.

Kent Barnds  
Yeah, they try, they travel. Well, they're incredibly loyal. They're probably a little little more, they're probably more complaints today than there were 10 years ago. I think that the loyalty is a little bit strained, but I think that that's more common everywhere. And Nebraska is still going to sell out every single Saturday. So, you know, growing up in western Nebraska, it's, you know, at the time that I did Nebraska football was, was it? I mean, it really was, and that just continued to be something that I've been interested in. My best friend from high school, we both grew up out in western Nebraska. He's a season ticket holder, so I get out there and try to enjoy a game at least once or twice a season. And it's always amazing. I mean, I've been gone from Nebraska since the early 1990s but I will undoubtedly run in to half a dozen people who who I knew back then at a Cornhusker game, and you know, it's like we've never lost contact or touch at all. That's just kind of the way Nebraska is.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So let's change gears. We'll get away from sports here for one second. Get back to some stuff that you really know a lot about. Let's talk a little bit about strategic planning, right? You've led two major strategic plans at Augustana. And I think there's generally a cynicism in higher ed about strategic plans. You know, the document gets launched, there's a rollout, and then it lives, maybe kind of in a drawer or a closet, never to come out again. And so what separates a plan that actually changes things from one that doesn't?

Kent Barnds  
Yeah, what an outstanding question. So first and foremost, I like to try to differentiate between institutional strategy and a strategic plan. I think that those strategic plans which never get a full life are because they are a list of things that somebody or a bunch of stakeholders want to do, but they're not grounded in strategy. Strategy is really about what you want to do over the long term, and you have to be really clear in stating what that is, and sometimes it's uncomfortable to state with clarity what a strategy might be that I think is oftentimes missing from strategic planning, especially in higher ed, because we want to have a fancy brochure, we want to have a microsite, we want to be able to have A list of things. I oftentimes refer to that list as the buckets of sweat. You know, we just want to show all the things that we've done, but not figure out how that's going to move what the institutional strategy is. So we've got a strategic plan right now, bold and boundless. And the strategic plan was about a page and a half, and it was because we explicitly named our strategy first and foremost, and then invited our community in to help us really develop the initiatives which will ultimately support The strategy. I mean, our strategy is three things, to maximize student potential, to double down on on engaged learning, or what we refer to as as engaged learning, and then three is to build partnership through community, with the objective of improving. Our neighborhood. I mean, those are three very specific things that we want to do. There are hundreds, if not 1000s of things that we can do to support those three things, but we grounded it in research. We looked at what type of learning is sticky, and it's that engaged experiential learning. We grounded the whole idea of maximizing student potential in this idea of being a student ready College, rather than expecting college ready students, recognizing that our students have changed and we have to change along with that.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's fantastic.

Kent Barnds  
We have our own institutional challenge and ambition to sort of change the trajectory of our neighborhood, and so we've named the strategy and the plan. And plans have to be nimble and agile and fill in around that. And I think that's the ingredients to make a plan that will last. You've got to have that clear strategy.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
What I love about that is, everybody wants the final result, right? Like we start to think about general goal setting, but we know that it's all the little things that you do to kind of get there that really matter. So I think naming those three things and then building from that is, is exceptional.

Kent Barnds  
It's it's rewarding, I think, also having a sort of predictable framework on what a plan looks like, or what an objective looks like. And I read a book probably 10 years ago. It's actually an illustrated book, which probably says more about me. You know, picture book, but it's I've got a strategy, no, you don't, and it's a really great book, and they have a framework that any sort of initiative should have a purpose, a plan, a series of actions and a measurable outcome. And my team members probably hate me, because anytime they come to me with an idea. I say, Okay, here's the framework. Put this together because it creates a discipline about how we go about our work, and it also signals, well, here are the four elements that I'm going to evaluate as to whether or not this is something that strategically makes sense for us, and whether or not there's going to be a timeframe within which we can, we can measure it, because sometimes we just, we just do stuff.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah.

Kent Barnds  
and just doing stuff, it's additive when it comes to cost, not only financially, but also psychic energy and investment. And so I like to introduce really early on that. Here's a framework I'd like you to follow, and it'll help us both in decision

Kevin Thomas  
making. You've at Augustana, and I'm going to get some of the numbers wrong, and you're a numbers person, so you're going to tell me where I get them wrong. In your time, you've expanded your applicant pool by more than 70% multicultural enrollments up 250% out of states up 46 and I think some of that's probably International. And you could probably tell me that no, probably tell me the numbers, but to me, those aren't marketing wins. Those are structural changes. What drove that that success, and what did you have to change inside the institution, not just the marketing, but what did you have to change to find that success?

Kent Barnds  
Yeah, well, let's, let's start with the whole idea of demand and building demand one you have to believe that the place is worthy of capturing more attention than it than it was when I got here. I mean, the applicant pool when I got here was just under 3000 applications for a place that has national or at least extra regional ambitions, we had to begin to think really differently about who we could attract, what the programs were that we could get in front of students to attract so. So part of it is convincing the organization that that you're worth more of that you should be recognized by more. The other part is introducing some best practices into that mix. You know, what does it take to build demand, membership in the Common Application, using a marketed application, implementing all of those best practices and then also being really targeted about where you're going to, where you're going to go. So you know, our first real strategic initiative in building enrollment outside of the state of Illinois was looking to Colorado. And why did we choose Colorado? One, because there are very few colleges like Augustana in that state. Two, we have a direct flight from the Quad Cities International Airport to Denver. And three, we thought that we could pull student athletes. That bet proved to be pretty successful, and it allowed, you know, you get a win and then you. Can start to look at some other areas, so you build some infrastructure around some programs, and make some investments, and it pays off. That's really where we saw our success with international student recruitment. We started about a dozen years ago. We were looking at the demographic cliff, and our trustees and leadership at the college said, how do we get to a market that nobody's in, and we chose the international market. I think right now, people might be saying, well, was that very wise? But a dozen year investment has completely changed our campus, I think for the better. I mean, one out of every five students at Augustana is an international, global citizen. Right now, we've been able to maintain, if not grow modestly, our overall enrollment over this period of time since the pandemic, I think in large part because we replaced students who maybe were no longer available to us because of demography in the US, with international students. I just got back from Morocco and Spain. I have really tough international travel responsibilities, awful. But, you know, I could see what our efforts have built over time in regard to partners and agents and really faithful alumni. So, you know, it's not trying to do all the things, but trying to do some things really, really well. The other thing I would say is, you know, I've made some mistakes. I mean, we had a regional rep in California, it didn't pay off. I had to pull the plug on that. And I think also getting into a framework by which you look at a horizon of time where you're going to invest the time and the effort, but also you're willing to pull a plug if it's if it's not paying off. And I think that's something we're not always good at.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Look, we also don't really talk about this enough, but the internationalization of the campus has such an impact on student experience, and in my opinion, in real positive ways. And so I think that the risk is definitely worth it when you talk about what and how it benefits student experience as well.

Kent Barnds  
Absolutely. I mean the global network that all of our students are able to develop because of the international student population here, but also, I think the richness of the classroom discussion. I mean our students are being exposed to diversity here that I think is really, really meaningful. I also maintain, and I wish that there were more emphasis on this. I think our country, the United States, is a single greatest export to the world is American higher education. And I think it's more valuable than than oil, more valuable than than chips. And I just don't think we spend enough time on that and emphasizing how important that export to the world is. And I certainly think that's one of our responsibilities.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So Augustana possible, right? Making 100% of demonstrated meeting, 100% of demonstrated financial need for high achieving students. That was a bold promise. You did it walk us through what it took to build the case for that commitment internally and who had to believe in it before it could become real?

Kent Barnds  
Yeah. Well, I want to acknowledge, first and foremost that Augustana possible would not be a reality without incredible philanthropic support from member of the Class of 1975 Murray Gerber, who wanted to do something significant for the college and Just a little bit of backstory when working with donors, it's so important to listen to them and their story and then find the intersections that make sense to help them give through an organization to the cause that really speaks to them. And Murray's story really is the inspiration for Augustana possible. Murray grew up, as he would say, dirt poor on South Side of Chicago, and rode his bike to Rock Island in order to enroll at Augustana because his mother couldn't afford single mother couldn't afford a bus ticket. Wow. And so Murray went on and had a very, very distinguished career, but, but he never lost sight of the fact that Augustana gave him a possibility, an opportunity that his his family couldn't support. And so listening to Murray talk about that is is really where the seed for this initiative. Of came forth. Murray talked about, I want Augustana to be a place where students like I was have the opportunity to get a liberal arts education and to go on and do great things like I was able to do. And so that was the seed that was planted. And then the mechanics of it all really were a little bit of back and forth between Augustana and the donor, as well as setting up the infrastructure at the time for about seven, seven and a half years of my time at Augustana, I also had oversight of College Advancement, and so at that particular time, I had college advancement and Enrollment Management, which sort of was the perfect intersection to design this program, which is allowing us, at August standard, to drive revenue in two different ways. We're, of course, able to drive revenue through new student enrollment by maintaining access and affordability for high achieving students from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, and then also, since this all goes towards endowed financial aid and Murray's gift, he is actually matching dollar for dollar gifts up to his $40 million gift, so that will ultimately result in $80 million towards our endowment. That, of course, drives revenue, also to the bottom line, that helps strengthen the college's finances. So really a cool program, and a program that I think is supporting the vision that the donor had, and that's the most important part of it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's a great story.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, I'm sitting here thinking, Brody, that can't tell stories the way that, you know, we talk about the the spoon guy, what's this?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Matthew Dicks?

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah. Matthew Dicks, like the way he says that a story is like so encompassing of what you need to do in your world and that you everybody tells stories wrong, can't you don't tell stories wrong. You tell them correctly.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes, he does well. Thank you. I'm glad to hear that.

Kevin Thomas  
And I think that transitions well, because I do think, you know, in all of the conversations that we're in, there's a question of value for higher education, is it worth it? What does it cost? What do you get? And it feels like it's louder than it's ever been. I don't know that. I really think it is like I think we're constantly having to face that in higher education, but you've spent a career making the case for small private liberal arts education. Has that case gotten harder to make, or is it just different right now?

Kent Barnds  
I think it is a little harder today than 10 years ago, and certainly that 30 years ago. And I'll just start this by saying if I look at my top 10 overlap from the National Clearinghouse, you know that annual exercise of running your admit pool through the National Clearinghouse and finding out where students preferred over your institution, with exception of two of those top 10 institutions, the other eight are on television every weekend from October until March, because they have division One basketball teams.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah.

Kent Barnds  
You know, a lot of people wouldn't say, well, that's not that big of a deal. That's actually really, really different when it comes to brand and name recognition, yeah. And so that's different than when I started in the early 1990s where there wasn't a level playing field, but it certainly was a narrower footprint that maybe just the largest flagship universities enjoyed, but now that just has kind of cascaded or rippled out, and it makes it harder, I think, to gain mind share for a smaller college. You know, I'm really lucky. I work for a place that's in a really good position overall, and market position and strength, and we're among the larger liberal arts colleges across the country, and made some really innovative moves. So I'm not going to cry my beer but, but it is hard to work, and I think some of the things that we have working against us is the perception of high cost, because people aren't recognizing that programs like Augustana possible and donor support can make high quality liberal arts education affordable and accessible. I think that that high price tag is a tension point. Also very few people really understand what a liberal arts college prepares a student to do and. And you know, it's hard to find many 17 or 18 year olds who say, I want to go to a liberal arts college, but it's really hard to find those 22 and 23 year old graduates who don't have a deep affection, appreciation and understanding for the impact of a liberal arts college. And so, you know, sometimes there's a perception maybe we're not selling what students want, and that that I think makes it challenging. And then the final, I would say, is, and I see this a little bit of my own kids. I've got three kids, college senior who graduates this Thursday from St Louis University, first year student at Butler and a sophomore in high school. And last thing I would say is that the advice about college, college going, college, selection, what college should be like, is so ubiquitous. It's so plentiful, and generally speaking, it's so wrong that it has really complicated our work. Again, I'm pretty fortunate in a position that I'm in that we're in pretty good shape comparatively, but it's different than it was 30 years ago when I started.

Kevin Thomas  
You know, I think the other part of this Kent, and you've touched on it a couple, of your answers to that for institutions, and I think institutions like yours, but it doesn't necessarily have to be private. Bernie and I have this conversation about public education and administration is keeping the right people in roles for longer than that typical time frame is massive. So whether it's been the people you work for you, you know you being in Augustana for the amount of time you have where a lot of institutions like yours have had five, 610, people like you is a massive get.

Kent Barnds  
I am so glad you. You mentioned that. I mean, we looked at the average in going back to Brody's question about strategic planning, right? When the average presidency is three and a half years, how the hell can you do effective strategic planning? I mean, you can't, right? And then the average tenure for a provost is even less than that. And man, I look across at our counterparts, I mean people who do enrollment work and just the churn. Now, there are some pretty significant exceptions to that churn, but that's at institutions that get it. They understand that having stable enrollment leadership because our business is still a relationship business is critically important. I mean, it ought to be a strategic imperative. My old boss, Steve balls, once said that he was at a session at the Council of independent colleges, they do this January boondoggle for college presidents, and he was at a session that was talking about enrollment management, leadership, and the facilitator asked the question of these presidents, how many of you have hired an enrollment manager in the last year? And half of the hands went up in that office or in that room, and then they asked the question, how many of you think that you'll be hiring a new enrollment manager in the next year? And three quarters of the hands went off or went up in that audience? 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's crazy.

Kent Barnds  
It is. But I think sometimes there is this sense that if we just change the person who is trying to lead an enrollment strategy, our fortunes are going to be going to be better. You know, I've had the opportunity to help shape academic programs, to help add athletic programs, to help think about co curricular investments, all with the mind of, How can this be done to help strengthen our enrollment profile? You can't do that if you don't have a long time investment in the culture and understand what can and cannot work. And we just see this churn, which really troubling to me. I mean, all of the people who, who I grew up with in this business, who have gone to the, what I describe as the consulting class. I mean, I get it, I understand why, but it's a tremendous loss to our work, to our profession, and I always troubled to kind of see that.

Kevin Thomas  
And some of that comes down to right, this statement that I hear a lot, I think old colleague of mine, Scott, who was also in Illinois, he would say, Listen, when enrollments up, everyone is successful. When enrollments down, it's your fault, and that's the pressure that these positions face, because everybody celebrates the win, but when you're not succeeding like it's a lot of pressure, which is why people go to those can. Silting rules and do other things.

Kent Barnds  
Yeah, there is a lot of pressure. I've heard that one Kevin and Brody that right? You know, if you bring in too many, everybody's mad because you got to find more beds and more classes. You bring in too few, and everybody's mad because, you know, there's just not enough. And if you bring in the exact number, everybody's mad because they're not the right ones. Yeah, you didn't hit whatever demography within was was expected. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You did such a great job of hitting the value question. We had lots of value questions, but I think, you know, I love those three notions about how it's different that really kind of set the frame. And so I want to talk a little bit about innovation now that you've kind of killed the value questions that we had with that one response. You were so good there. But like you carry this title, a VP for strategy and innovation, right? Innovation in higher ed, we hear that phrase all the time, right? It gets abused constantly. What does it actually mean to you? Practically like say on a Monday morning when we're recording today. What does innovation look like at Augustana or in higher ed?

Kent Barnds  
Well, innovation is seldom groundbreaking. It is seldom sort of bleeding edge. I carry in my head a fairly simple definition that it's finding new combinations that add some new value. And you know, we like to point to some, some very specific things that we've done that we would count in the innovation bucket which which represent that, that sort of formula of new combinations that add new value. So one of the things that we've got on the horizon right now is we are in the final stages of completing a transaction through which we are acquiring School of Nursing and Health Sciences. This is, you know, different, because oftentimes you you launch a new program, and you do it all on your own, you hire the new faculty, you design the curriculum we have. We're pushing that to, you know, to basically acquire to buy a competency that we feel is important for our institution and for students, but also for broader society. I mean, that's the type of thing that represents a new combination, that adds new value, similarly, and this is what I'm really proud of. Several years ago, we approached a foundation because we'd added men's volleyball, and I sat down with the people at the foundation. I said, Hey, we've added men's volleyball, and we need a location for them to compete. How would you feel about helping us build an auditorium, a new pool? And the person the foundation said, Yeah, we're not going to build you a new pool, but could you think a little bit more expansively and a little more creatively? And so we started to look at academic programs that could have a positive impact in the Quad Cities. And so programs like kinesiology, public health, variety of others, and we came up with this really imaginative plan to create a new academic building that also, incidentally, had a pool and natatorium. It's now called the Peter J Lindberg MD Center for Health and Human Performance. And so we thought about combining these academic programs with also some new athletic programs, men's and women's water polo, and expanding our swimming rosters. And then also illustrated the return on investment of bringing new students, and ultimately, made a pretty compelling pitch to that, that foundation, and they funded a large portion of that that building, but, that's the type of innovative thinking. You know, it's, it's not, oh, we are going to be the first to do X, Y and Z. Instead, it's learning from others and figuring out how you can use what others have done with some strength you have in order to add new value to the institution. Long answer, but that's the way I kind of think about it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I think connecting to community is always a great response. When we start to think about higher ed innovation, we kind of forget about that, that in many instances, our colleges and universities are connected to the economic and or just self interest of the communities that we surround. And so I love that your examples are kind of really built in and grounded in this idea that we can help you too, right as we start to innovate and think about academic programs or or the recruitment and retention of students that that community connection. Is really important.

Kent Barnds  
We better be thinking about that, right? I mean, we rely on our community for our health, and I think being as as having permeable membranes between the institution and the community is is really important. You know, we're going to, we're going to be successful or not successful, I think dependent upon the relationship we have with our hometowns.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
It's great.

Kevin Thomas  
And I love the answers, right? Like there's so much of the thinking and the work that you're doing, Kent that gets to this notion of knocking down the silo, right? Like you're, you're taking holistic approach to what you're doing, and I think that's making for a better product and a better better job and better opportunity for folks. And so I'm curious in this innovation side, and we have to hit this topic at least one time, right? Like, because we haven't talked about it today, but you know, like, is AI just going to do all this for us now? Kid, like, like, what's going on? And really, I think it's like, you know is there's a difference between using AI to do more of the same things and using it to rethink the work that's actually occurring. Are institutions making that decision, or is it just adoption theater?

Kent Barnds  
Wow. So I a week from today, I've got a webinar that I've been working on for probably the last six weeks that is kind of stepping back and taking a look at AI use and admissions and strategic enrollment management, and so I'm going to give you kind of just the high level AI has tremendous potential. I don't think that we've even gotten close to tapping the full potential, but I will also say that right now, my read is that AI use in our work is generally supplementary, rather than replacing something. Now there are probably a few exceptions to that, but I think that AI in many other areas, is not only maybe adding to a performance outcome, but also is creating some efficiencies that lead to some type of savings or value. I don't think we're there yet in AI, so I think that right now, it's kind of around the edges, and our business is still going to be deeply personal, I think deeply human centric, and I would urge all of us to be pretty cautious about how much we turn over to AI, whether it is what I think is going to be an emerging part that has a direct impact on our world, and that is adaptive AI modeling. You know, so much of our modeling historically has been based on regression analysis, but the models are so big, and the brains are so big, and AI is now so intuitive that models can be changing on an hourly, daily basis. I don't know if that's good when it comes to the human element, so I just think about, you know, financial aid modeling. And you know, if it's fine tuning so quickly, you might get get twins who have the exact same profile, but you got their ICER at a different time, and the model is updated, who get wildly different financial aid awards that we ultimately end up having to explain, yeah, and so I don't think AI is going to take over our work. I don't think it's going to replace it. I think it will become sub it will be it will enhance what we do. But I think we have to guard against perceptions that AI is now doing application review, that AI is doing transcript and GPA recalculation, that AI is skimming and scanning letters of recommendation and grading whether or not this was a thoughtful recommendation or not, we still have to keep The human element at the center where I think AI probably is, is going to result in some reallocation of resources, is, I do think about with proper testing. If you're a place that does a recalculation of a student's GPA based on academic courses. That's a better use of AI than having all of the student workers who I deploy to do that on an annual basis. I can still employ those student workers, but I can have them doing human contact. So I don't know, maybe I'm a little more. Cautious than some, but even even those people who are really out on the edge, I think that sometimes they're questioning whether or not, as the saying goes, the juice is worth the squeeze on some of the AI initiatives that are out there now, two years from now, I could be proven to be a complete idiot on this, so I just want to copy that way.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Well, look whether it's whether it's moving quickly or cautiously. I think that human connection piece that you've talked about still remains right. Our students want that, our faculty members want that, our advising staffs want that human connection. And so I think, I think what AI is also helping us do is kind of refine how important that human connection is, and really forcing people to kind of think out of the box about being better connected in more meaningful ways in whatever space that is, whether it's an advising relationship in the classroom on the recruitment and retention side, we have to be better at connecting very humanly with the folks that we're interacting with.

Kent Barnds  
I couldn't agree more. I mean, this is still a very human centric business, or at least a better way.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, absolutely. Kevin, we got to move to fun. Don't you think? 

Kevin Thomas  
I didn't know if you're going to ask this music question. You're the music guy. I thought you might go there before we go.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
We can, we can do it all right. So jazz Lyle, love it. The Grateful Dead Kevin's told me you're a big fan of all three, right? Is there? That's a very specific musical Venn diagram, right? Like, help us understand maybe the person that kind of lives at the center of that overlap.

Kent Barnds  
Well, I love music. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I do too so much.

Kent Barnds  
But I probably do have particular taste. The other thing that I have not disclosed on my LinkedIn bio is, I hate Billy Joel. I refer to Billy Joel as the unlistenable Billy Joel. Actually, not Billy Joel, and it's probably not his music, but it's how annoying I find his music used. You know, it's all of those late night parties with a bunch of people who've had too much to drink, singing piano, man, I just have developed this disdain awful for me. Grateful Dead Lyle Lovett jazz, the whole Grateful Dead jazz thing, they're the same. I mean, those are musical genres where the music takes people to a different place, and that's one of the things I really appreciate. It's unpredictable. It sometimes goes really well, and then sometimes doesn't go especially well. It is a great line from the Netflix documentary on the Grateful Dead. The document is called long, strange trip. Phil Lesh, when asked why the Grateful Dead made it for 50 years, said, Well, I think it's because we've had to listen hard to each other, and I think that is such an important part of life, right? If you're going to respond, if you're going to go to an unpredictable you're going to go to a creative space, you've got to be constantly listening hard. And so I think that's where the Grateful Dead and and jazz comes in. Lyle, love it. I just love the dude. I mean, talking about that predictable I mean great thing that he's a good storyteller and has a great voice. So we love seeing Lyle. Love it whenever we can.

Kevin Thomas  
That's fantastic, Kevin, let me ask that question. I knew you'd won that one. So let's head into the lightning round. Let's do it. All right. Best city you've ever worked or lived in.

Kent Barnds  
Sevilla, Spain. My favorite place. I studied there. Returned there for work. I love Sevilla. Everything about it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Favorite thing you've ever cooked, the dish that makes the family actually excited.

Kent Barnds  
Well, growing up in Nebraska, we're red meat eaters, so a good medium rare steak is going to get everybody in the barns. Family pretty happy.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's great. Love it.

Kevin Thomas  
If we're looking at your phone, what's the app that is the most used that you can't live without?

Kent Barnds  
Oh, man. Well, I'm embarrassed to say this, but it's a slate app. I mean, holy smokes. You know, the slate app has been getting burnt up. I can't tell you many times I'm refreshing that five year comparative funnel report.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, it's a lot. I know. I know that. I know that pain.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Oh, wow. Book you hand to people, professional or personal.

Kent Barnds  
I honestly, I mentioned that strategic planning book I have given that to people who are superiors to my, to me, as well as others. I just think it that that little helpful framework of purpose, plan, series of actions and measurable goal, I think, is, is really, really valuable for people. Yeah, I need that book. I got to make sure that happens. 

Kevin Thomas  
And maybe it's our wrap up here in the lightning round. What's still on your bucket list?

Kent Barnds  
Oh, you know what, I don't have a bucket list yet I and I think one of the reasons why I don't is I want to make sure that that Martha Sophie and Ben are well positioned to be able to enjoy life and a career that is rewarding to them. So I'm really focused on we've got two in college now, one on the horizon, and then maybe once we get that taken care of, I can begin to think about a bucket list.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's a solid answer. I appreciate that. Ken. Well, Ken, thanks so much for joining us today. God, you were great.

Kent Barnds  
Well, this was awesome. I've listened to your to the pickup meeting several times, and your guests are always great, in large part because you guys are great hosts. So this was really fun for me.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Thank you.

Kevin Thomas  
Thank you so much. We appreciate that. So much. Great having you on.

Kent Barnds  
Hey, have a great day. 

Kevin Thomas  
Amazing, right? Like, here's the thing, folks, we went an hour and five or six minutes here, and I think we probably had 10 more questions we wanted to ask so much and you and I talk about this a lot, storytelling and talking about your purpose, and being able to articulate those things and looking at it in a holistic way is at such a minimal aspect on many of our campuses. And so when you get to interact with somebody like Kent, who sees that picture, and can do those things. You just kind of left saying, hey, I want to go work for this guy. I'm ready to go to Augustana right now. Like, let's go.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, you know, the one thing that I think is carry over. Like, when we do presentations, oftentimes they say, what, how do we how do we make this applicable to our institution? That value question was so great. His response, like, I think about those three things, like, what's the value of a liberal arts education, right? What's how do we how do we deal with the financial question? Well, when we're talking to prospective students, and then thinking about all the advice that we get wrong when we start to make those like those three things are really important at any institution, right? For all of our listeners, wherever you're working, you've got to be able to do those three things really well. And if you can't, you're going to have a lot of trouble.

Kevin Thomas  
I agree. I agree. Well, let's talk about three things that we might be doing. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
yes,

Kevin Thomas  
Our top three today, which is top three old people habits we've already adopted?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, this is fun, Kevin, because I am actually old already. You've made it perfectly clear.

Kevin Thomas  
Young and heart, what are your three like? Do you want me to go? You want to go?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I mean, I wake up so early. I mean, for like, if I sleep past eight o'clock, like, I think I've ruined the day. So I think that's the first one. Yeah, I delivered newspapers as a kid. I got up every morning from the age of 13 until I went to college at about five o'clock. And so I'm just an early riser, pretty much. I mean, my alarm goes off really early in the morning. I love local news, like, I think that makes me an old person, like, I have, you know, whether it's NPR, turning on the TV and watching my local news channel, like, I need to know what's happening in my little bitty area, and then I'm trying to think of my and look the senior discount like, let's go. I'm in and so wherever I can get senior discounts. Now I'm doing it

Kevin Thomas  
All right? Those are, those are legit.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
How about you?

Kevin Thomas  
I think one you're going to take a personal so I'm away here today.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's great.

Kevin Thomas  
We've talked about one of these on the show already, but, like, I am the most anti noise pollution person in the world, and I feel like this isn't, this is getting older, and you know, like, we're not going to talk about your your cat food again. But if you haven't heard that episode, folks, you got to find it. We need to mark that one somewhere, because that's a. The story. Good. Good story.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Absolutely.

Kevin Thomas  
But noise pollution, in my response to it, like, Hey, did you know that there's air pods you could use? Hey, did you know you could put something on your ears? Did you know that I don't care about your YouTube video? Those are the things that come to my mind so quickly, and I can't stand it. I would also like, I'm not going to steal yours, but I echo your sleep one right? Like, where it's like you're either not sleeping enough, but you're getting up too early and all of a sudden, 10pm is a late night. You know, like, those things are real, far too many things that, in my mind, are organizational and like, have become an old way of functioning. It's like, I appreciate how you put the dishes in the cabinet or in the dishwasher. But you're wrong. Here's the right way. But I think the one that you're going to be like, Hey now, like this is hitting a little close to home, is if you said to either of us, and this is how we're getting old man, if you said to either of us, well, you know what's something you're really proud of? We would talk about walking. We would talk about our steps. We talked about it being a thing. And I have to say where it's like, you know, like, if you talk to somebody in their 20s, they're like, Yeah, you know, I went and did this and played some basketball and did those things, and I'm like, Well, I went for a walk. And they're like, that's great that you're excellent at exercise. I think that's a real thing and makes me feel old.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I overdone the running conversations too many times, like no one cares Brody, that you're a fast half marathon, or no one cares that you logged five miles today. I think my injury now and only being able to walk his punishment for all those times I did that.

Kevin Thomas  
I think you're right. I think you're right.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Well, that was great. And so I think we should close this one down. That's it for this episode of the pickup meeting. We hope all your meetings, whether they're formal or pickup style or as fun and as meaningful as this one until next time gang, let's just do good and be nice.