Ep. 32 - Clint-Michael Reneau, Northern Illinois University

Dr. Clint-Michael Reneau joins The Pickup Meeting for thought-provoking and wildly quotable conversation about leadership, belonging, vulnerability, and the real work of student success. As Vice President for Student Affairs at Northern Illinois University, Clint-Michael reminds us that belonging does not happen by accident, care is not soft, and student success is not a program, but a system we are all responsible for designing.

Brody, Kevin, and Clint-Michael dig into what it means to lead through uncertainty, model vulnerability without losing clarity, and stay “trustworthy in the shake” when campuses face budget pressures, political challenges, morale dips, and constant change. Clint-Michael also shares powerful reflections on storytelling, social media, equity work, collaboration between Student Affairs and Academic Affairs, supporting men and masculinities, crisis leadership, and why curiosity may be one of the most important tools a leader can carry.

Of course, this is still The Pickup Meeting, so the conversation takes a few glorious detours through undergraduate transcript confessions, campus traditions, castle offices, Ed Sheeran feelings, favorite cities, hidden talents, dirty martinis, trash TV, and a spirited debate over whether A-ha’s Take On Me counts as a one-hit wonder.

*The Pickup Meeting is a spinoff of the Adventures in Advising podcast!

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Transcript

Kevin Thomas  0:19  
And away we go. Welcome to The Pickup Meeting. Today's pickup meeting is rated PG for pretty good, or at least that's the goal. I'm Kevin Thomas, joined today by a man whose voicemail is probably just students calling to say, thank you for doing all that you do. My cohost Brody Broshears.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  0:37  
Oh, that was good, Kevin. I liked that one. 

Kevin Thomas  0:40  
See, that's not bad. I think we're gonna do better than pretty good. But you know, I didn't do pretty good 13. That feels weird. No, it does rated R for radical. I don't know where to go from there.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  0:52  
So Kevin, I was alive and able to go to PG 13 movies when they moved to PG 13. Red Dawn was the reason they went to PG 13. And I saw that even what that is, I saw that movie in the movie theaters. You were three years old.

Kevin Thomas  1:06  
What did we read dawn? Is this Patrick Swayze, is that right? 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:09  
And Charlie Sheen and JJennifer Gray and yeah, it was C Thomas Howell. Amazing. If you haven't seen the original Red Dawn, it's worth your time.

Kevin Thomas  1:21  
Maybe I have, I don't know. Yeah, I don't that. Listen, I didn't know that that was a thing. But you're, you're quite the wealth of knowledge due to your excess age.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:29  
Yes, 55 feels pretty good some days.

Kevin Thomas  1:33  
Listen, this episode was releasing in, you know, the middle of May. Here we are, and I got to thinking about dates, right? And like, I don't know that it's fun or interactive, and you have no idea what's coming, which is a lot of fun today. Golly, I know this is what happens when you're recording...

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:50  
It happens when you think it's what happens when you think about things.

Kevin Thomas  1:55  
That's true. Hey. So what if we looked at dates of significance in the calendar year, and we equated a higher education moment to those dates. Oh, Good golly. So like, for example, what is the equivalent of the Super Bowl in higher education?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  2:20  
I don't know it's like, like, it's right around the time FAFSA kind of comes out, like the FAFSA deadline, maybe?

Kevin Thomas  2:27  
See, I think FAFSA deadline is probably pretty close, right? Because there's a lot of build up, enormous pressure, and then one day where everything comes together and people is launched, right? And then it's kind of disappointing in the end.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  2:44  
Yeah, the award letter when it comes is that, like, either it's either, like, the halftime show or the game, depending on who you are, right?

Kevin Thomas  2:51  
So what would be the equivalent of St Patrick's Day? Is it spring break? I think it's got to be spring break or, like, the the toga party at the fraternity group, yeah, like, I don't even know if that still happens. We'll have to ask our guest today, is that still a thing? I think it is.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  3:08  
But I never really celebrated St Patrick's Day. I only have one really crazy St Patrick's Day, but I don't think it's for this podcast.

Kevin Thomas  3:15  
Oh, what is it? A different podcast? 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  3:17  
No. It's phone conversation. Kevin Thomas, stuff. 

Kevin Thomas  3:24  
Got it. Got it. Okay, so the Olympics give me the Olympics Brody Broshears.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  3:31  
I don't, I don't know, gosh darn it.

Kevin Thomas  3:34  
In my mind, the Olympics without the cool intro music is like New Student Orientation and or university welcome weeks that they do, right? Like, it's like a sprint. Like, it's, there's events going on all the time.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  3:49  
They're like the opening ceremonies and...

Kevin Thomas  3:55  
We need to encourage at our orientations to be more like the opening ceremonies of the Olympics.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  4:00  
Yeah. Like we were, we're right around Mother's Day. That has to be commencement, doesn't it?

Kevin Thomas  4:07  
I think so, right? Like, when we say, like, mothers and Father's Day are similar to commencement, where you kind of recognize all of your accomplishments and celebrate them.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  4:19  
I mean, Father's Day is, like, in the middle of June, it's like a dead zone, just like Father's Day, you get your tie, and that's about it, right?

Kevin Thomas  4:29  
Are you getting a lot of ties from the girls there?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  4:30  
Brody, no, they always got good gifts. If I got any gifts at all.

Kevin Thomas  4:36  
You didn't get gifts some years. I feel like this is gonna become a therapeutic session of what you're not okay in your household.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  4:46  
I mean, Mother's Day is always different than Father's Day, though, isn't it? I mean, come on.

Kevin Thomas  4:51  
I mean, I think, I think you're right, right? Mother's Day is a very important day. You cannot forget your mother. Mother? No, I mean, you're you. You talked about in an episode earlier this month that when you're sick and you live in Illinois, that you go live with your mom in Indiana. I mean, that's the relationship that you have with your mother. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  5:16  
I did not do that. What I do is I go home to Evansville, and I would stay with my wife, but when I'm sick, I stay at my mom's because I don't want to get my wife sick. I don't I think maybe that's more about me. Like my mom is almost 80 years old, like bringing sickness to her, I was probably not useful.

Kevin Thomas  5:34  
She must be a very healthy 80 if you're not worried. So, do you do something special for Mother's Day?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  5:42  
Well, I mean, the last couple of years, in the spring, Mother's Day has been commencement weekend, right? At least where I've been, it's been kind of crazy. So it's, it's tough to get away. I mean, we always do something nice, go out to eat, get a good card. I get my mom a lot. I really love ceramics. And my mom likes a decorated house, and always go to the student ceramic sale, and usually try to pick her up something really nice.

Kevin Thomas  6:08  
And I love the things that are campus staples, no matter what campus you're on. Yes, like, they're those type of sales on campuses that you can take advantage of. It's just it's such a beautiful thing. I would say, I'm in a similar boat, because I worked in Kentucky for such a long time that Mother's Day was always commencement weekend, because it couldn't be the weekend before that, because that was derby. Yes, and you can't do Derby and have commencement the same weekend. It's just not a thing.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  6:37  
Yeah, that needs to be a top three, top three events you've never been to but that you really think you should get to, because I've never been to the derby. That needs to happen.

Kevin Thomas  6:46  
I've never been to the derby. Wow, maybe that's been, I've been in the Derby, but not to the derby. Yes. So I've only been in Churchill Downs, not to the derby.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  6:58  
Imagine if we really did it right? Like got nice and dressed up and did all the things.

Kevin Thomas  7:03  
What kind of baller hat would you wear?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  7:05  
I don't I'm a I'm a Gatsby guy.

Kevin Thomas  7:08  
You think that looks good. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  7:12  
Yeah. I mean, look at me. Come on. 

Kevin Thomas  7:15  
You're good, a good man. I know we keep talking about this and each other, but you know, I Yeah, way to go. What would you do?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  7:23  
Or would you just stay bald?

Kevin Thomas  7:25  
I think I'd stay bald. And I think I would blow up the sunglasses a little more, right? Like, I wear some big sunglasses anyway, but I think I would get some bigger ones. Would you go cowboy hat? Oh, Lord, no. My head is massive, man. I ain't putting a cowboy hat on that thing. Oh, I think it looked I think it looked tough. I couldn't even wear, like, cowboy boots when I had to do that back when I was in musicals and plays, because my calves were so dang large, like it just did not work.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  7:52  
So, like, walking in high heels.

Kevin Thomas  7:54  
I have not done that. I don't know that one.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  8:01  
We kind of strayed from our original topic, but I think it was better.

Kevin Thomas  8:05  
We dove into another one, but I got this thought and and I'm curious about this, if you were applying for jobs today or no, if you had to give somebody this today, let's go with this. And this is your transcript. If you had to give your undergraduate transcript to somebody, what would be the things that you would say? I don't love that. That's there.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  8:31  
I have bad news, Kevin, I was a really good undergraduate student. There's not really anything bad.

Kevin Thomas  8:36  
There are you kidding me? You're that smart.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  8:39  
I was really smart. I was phi, beta, kappa. I think my GPA was like, 3.81 something like that. Like, I got a few B's, but mostly A's and a minuses. I mean, I got a B in speech class. That's the only class where I really under achieved, which is really hilarious when you think about it.

Kevin Thomas  9:00  
You got to B in speech class. Man, that's a surprise.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  9:07  
I was so scared to get in front of people for a grade. I got such anxiety, I broke out in hives the first time I went over on time and knew it was going to impact my grade, and I just fell apart.

Kevin Thomas  9:19  
Wow, that's a lot.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  9:21  
It's a good lesson. I mean, look at me now. I speak in front of hundreds of people. Yeah, I get paid to do it, even if people don't listen.

Kevin Thomas  9:31  
That's true, that happens. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  9:34  
So, that would be the one thing on my transcript where I'd go, Okay, what about you? Your transcript is...

Kevin Thomas  9:44  
Listen, I had to work really hard to get my GPA above a three. Oh, after the first two years. Oh, boy, yeah. My first semester, I was, and you know this, we've talked about this, I was a vocal music major. I. And I thought I knew it all. And, you know, I didn't even go to the right history course, and so I was in a different history course for like, half the semester, and and I eventually got signed into that one. But I took music appreciation, thinking I'm a vocal music major. I got this d plus, oh no, d plus Professor Ripley, wherever he's at. I'm not gonna defame the person, but like I hope he's grown as an instructor since 1998.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  10:35  
You've grown as a you've grown as a professional. So maybe there's hope for him too.

Kevin Thomas  10:41  
Yeah, it was not, it was not great. And so, like, those first two years were pretty brutal between that and general educations of like math or algebra and chemistry and biology. Like, it was some struggles.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  10:58  
Well, this has been awesome. I didn't know that about you?

Kevin Thomas  11:01  
Yeah, well, so, like, I tell students this a lot, when you get a chance to interact in this way, you know, sometimes general education or the core at an institution is the hardest academic timeframe, because it's not you necessarily studying what you want to yet and and once I got into communication and public relations, I was golden, right? Like, that's when my grades took off.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  11:29  
I mean, I think here's the thing, I never really thought of myself as a smart person. I always felt like I had to work really hard, and it was really the only thing I was good at, was, like, going to class and doing the work. And it just I just got to a point where maybe I got lucky. But most of the classes I took, I had great faculty. They made the the stuff interesting, the stuff they assigned to read. I enjoyed reading, and it just made it easier. And I was pretty well prepared. I went to a Catholic school like my parents busted their tails so I could go to a parochial school that was a college prep school, and I was ready to go that first semester. I was like, Okay, this is it good, golly, this is going to great.

Kevin Thomas  12:14  
The big brain on Brody. So I just worked harder. I just outworked people. I think I think so too. It sounds like it. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  12:22  
You're still smarter than me.

Kevin Thomas  12:25  
No, I don't think that's true. I think we're equally as smart. No, I will say, uh, I was not. This is, and this is one of these things that is the anti of what most people believe. Uh, first two years, I was not a great student in college. Really thought I was going to be on probation after the first semester, the report card showed up, and my mom, and this is when they mailed it, was super frustrated by that about how poor they had done. Oh, my and, and. But then I will say, after my sophomore year, first semester of my junior year, I joined social sharing on campus at Murray State, and I had to go do study hours as part of being a part of the Greek community and and then I learned how to study, and learned that there is such a thing as studying, and knew what I was doing, and I would say the reason why I did anything academically is because I went Creek, which I don't think a lot of people believe that that is the way in I am proof that it can be.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  13:33  
Yeah, we'll have to dig into this our undergraduate experiences, maybe a little bit more. I think that would be fun.

Kevin Thomas  13:38  
Is that a future just us? Episode. Are you teasing?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  13:41  
No, I would love that.

Kevin Thomas  13:43  
Let's do it all right. Well, not today, not today. Today is a conversation that I've been looking forward to for quite some time, and we have to self admit this, we've had this guest booked more than once, and you had to cancel on them because you were not feeling so well, but this is somebody that believes that belonging is an outcome and not an accident, and that leading with vulnerability is not a weakness, but it's the actual point of what you're doing. And so I'd like to welcome our guests to the show today. Let's welcome Dr Clint-Michael Reneau.

Clint-Michael Reneau  14:20  
Hello. Hello. How are y'all doing good? How are you I'm well, I'm well. I'm excited to be with you both. I'm excited to finally be on this esteemed podcast, on your show. I feel like I've been fan girling for a while now, and the fact that you two have finally brought me on and made it happen, I'm excited. So thank you very much, and it's probably best that I was muted and hidden away when you were talking. You know, some of your I was a very good student. I had a 3.68 and I was, it...

Michael "Brody" Broshears  14:57  
It feels like a self prank now. I mean. Now, when you talk about it, I don't, I don't sound so good.

Clint-Michael Reneau  15:02  
I'm like some of us didn't quite experience, sir, have that experience. Some of us did not get out in four years. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  15:13  
Well, I was going to say you were going to make it. You had made a pretty strong opening statement. There, fan girling on us. But now I'm not. 

Clint-Michael Reneau  15:20  
I'm still fangirling. I'm sorry.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  15:25  
So let's make sure this is right. You lead the Division of Student Affairs at NIU, Northern Illinois University, where you champion student success, well being and belonging for a student population. And I've been here that's mostly first generation. You're active, driving equity work, addressing achievement gaps, strengthening campus climate, and you do all of that at scale, right? I mean, that's what you're doing, right?

Clint-Michael Reneau  15:48  
Working on it, working on it every day, working on it every day, and trying to also committed to being better every day, right? Yeah, you know, trying to imagine what the younger me needed, what what 19 year old me needed as a first gen kid, as someone who was working through multiple identities and and trying to navigate big, complex spaces and committing to try and do better each day. And that's what think. Really, that's what we're all here. We're all here to do that. We're all here to think around ways in which we, you know, we widen the circle. We build a longer table, not a higher wall. We extend grace, we pull people in rather than exclude others, and try to make it to where we understand that we have a responsibility. We are, you know, we response. We're responsive to and responsible for each other, our colleagues, students ourselves and so that we better get in the game. Better get our hidden, our head in the game around this work?

Kevin Thomas  17:02  
Yeah, Michael, you and I connected within the last couple years, and I'll tell the audience, right like Clint, Michael and I had a good time together. We spent a couple days in DC with EAB, and that's how our paths really interacted. But if you really want to follow somebody that is going to set a standard on social media, Clint Michaels, your person, right? Like to engage. Because I am left in awe, and I was accused the other day of like, well, if you have a posting schedule, then you're trying to be an influencer. And I'm like, I'm not trying to be an influencer. I'm trying to talk about what's happening in higher education, what's happening on our campus. And I think that you do that from a campus standpoint, for sure, maybe better than anybody.

Clint-Michael Reneau  17:50  
I know. I appreciate that. And I also am going to be honest with you, kind of what you see is what you get. So when you said someone talking about you about you about trying to be a little influencer, or whatever. I someone tried to say that with me at one point. And I always get a little salty with that kind of stuff. Because the reality is, is that also I take it seriously around posting that kind of stuff. Because couple of things, students need to see themselves in the work. They need to see themselves. They need to see the vibrance of the community in which folks are either thinking about attending or choosing to attend. Also, folks that are interested in doing the work, need to see themselves in the work and what's possible. The other piece is that we have to let people know what's required of the work, right, that we need to be in a lot of spaces and places, and we need to have connection and community, and that's what comes with this work. There needs to be elements of fun. There needs to be elements of connection. And I see you, there needs to be elements of, I believe in you. There needs to be elements of, you got this, because we've got you, there needs to be elements of the fact that you know, you make the unknown visible. If someone didn't have a clue about the work. Someone didn't have a clue what it means to go to school or go to college. If someone didn't have a clue about what it means to want to do the work, you have to make that you have to make that known. And so I take it pretty personally sometimes when folks want to have sit on the sidelines and have remarks number one, just kind of like the, you know, when you when you think about it, and I've, I've done a lot of work with Brene Brown's leadership stuff and, and when you're looking at, you know that the Man in the Arena speech and, and, you know, thinking about all that, I also don't have a lot of time for. Folks who want to give critiques and little little drive bys where they just want to plant and kind of throw little things that you first of all, not every rock is yours to pick up and carry, right? Not every piece of feedback is yours to pick up and carry. And so if you're, if you're in the cheap seats, and you're wanting to kind of just throw a little slide that's cute, keep it moving, because I would always receive it. And then secondly, also, what I tell folks is part of this about part of what this is, is that if you don't define the narrative, trust and believe someone's going to define the narrative for you, yeah, and so you need to put out there what's happening and what you're doing and how it impacts the community, and what our students are celebrating and achieving, and what they are working through and discovering and and that's what it's about. So I say, continue doing it and listen. You know, no one's no one sitting up here trying to be an influencer. What we're trying to do is tell the story and try to make the unknown visible. That's what it's about.

Kevin Thomas  21:05  
We talk about this a lot, and Brody and I teach at administrators Institute for NACADA in our press professional association. And we talk about the fact that, as a whole, higher education does a terrible job of storytelling. So you know, to your point, keep telling the stories, because that's really a powerful thing. Brody, I know I interrupted you there.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  21:27  
No, you didn't. I mean, I think those narratives are really important. I wanted to go back to like, it intrigues me. You mentioned Brene Brown and kind of her vulner vulnerability research, right? How have you brought that into your leadership practice? What does it look like for a VP to model vulnerability for an entire division?

Clint-Michael Reneau  21:48  
Yeah, so I'm going to be honest with you. I everywhere that I've worked any retreat, that I run any division retreat, any leadership routine retreat, any anytime I talk with teams, I talk about the fact that there is power and presence. And presence means not a staged presence, not a because I have a title positionality presence, like some days you get what you get, yeah, and, you know, I had to tell a staff member the other day I we're in a really complex time. In this moment, I don't have to give you what you need, right? I'm struggling with it myself. I can't be the raw raw right now. I don't have the raw raw, right? What I can do is I'm going to say it's not here today, but I I will find it again. Because my job, you know, my job, is to help amplify, uplift, encourage, move us in a direction. But in this 30 minute conversation, I'll have it. So if that's what you're looking for, I don't have it to give now circle back, I'll find it again, but I don't have it right now. And so what I think about in terms of vulnerability is that, as a leader, vulnerability means that you're you're appropriately transparent about the things that you can be and sometimes that also means telling folks, I cannot speak to you about this, or I will share with you what I can share with you. Yeah, at times it's also about the fact that you know, you name, what's hard. You know higher ed is, we certainly are in any number of things that are hard right now, right budgets, morale, public trust, federal regulations, you know, reversing, removing diversity equity, inclusion and access efforts, looking at, you know, there's a number of things naming it, talking about what's hard, talking about how it impacts all of us, and the multiple personality most multiple identities that we all carry, we all carry some type of identities. And how does it show up? How does it show up in your leadership when something lands hard, vulnerability also means saying, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Right now, I, I, you know it also means that helping folks to realize leadership is not unshakable, but it's about being trustworthy in the shake we are all having moments of crisis on our campuses where the ground beneath us is fracturing, is shaking, is is we are having deep cuts and fractures in the ground in which we stand. Everything is moving. And again, we don't have to look unshakable. It, but we have to be trustworthy in the shake and so I what I want to tell people is that and leadership is just one aspect of it. So when you see a leader, you also have to understand this person is going home, and maybe they're a caregiver to a parent with dementia, maybe they're dealing with a relationship that is on the fritz and dealing with stuff that is hard at home. Maybe they have a child who is sick. Maybe they have bills that you can't imagine. Everyone has multiple pieces of the identities that are seen and unseen, and leadership is, you know, the vulnerability piece is that you stay present when you want to retreat. To retreat. You think about, you know, when you talk about Brene Brown, when, when clear is kind, unclear is unkind, yeah, and, and sometimes that clarity means, like, I have to tell that I don't I'm not the wrong raw for you today, right? I'll get there, but I'm not doing it. I can't do it today. That's great. The other thing is also understanding vulnerability means understanding when you're leading from ego, and when does the ego creep in, because ego is dangerous, brother, and that it can creep in. And when you are triggered and you want to puff up and you want to kind of take up maybe more space and air in the room because of this or that, trying to get real clarity around, Ooh, wait, wait, this is the ego, and I need to be vulnerable enough to say. I need to back it up a little bit, and I need to reconsider how this, how this comes out.

Kevin Thomas  26:41  
I love it. I love it. And you mentioned some of the real pressures that you're facing. I think universities are facing them. But you know Student Affairs right now, budget pressures, political pressure, enrollment pressure, mental health demand. Yep, I know that. I would say you are an ambassador and champion of a culture of care. And so how do you sustain that when the institution around you is under that stress? And you mentioned some of those things, right? Like and I truly appreciate your conversation about ego. I always refer to ego and like that. There's a big E and a little E, and one of those is good and one of those is bad. But the other thing that caught me in your answer there, and maybe you'll touch on it here. Is like that ability to say, I don't know, and when we sit in the chairs that we sit in, sometimes that's the most terrifying answer to give, right.

Clint-Michael Reneau  27:31  
And we also fool ourselves, sometimes, because we think that we have to have the answer for everything right, and sometimes, in order to lead well and to lead right, we have to understand, again, we are people. And I think anytime you're in student affairs and you're working with student success in all the areas that seem like they have to move quick. I always tell teams, we're the people that have to be prepared to be in the moment, in the moment, right? You've got to be in the moment, in the moment, yeah, and what, I also have to remind people, and I had to do it, and it was uncomfortable, and I had to do it in a meeting with other vice presidents this week. You have to get clarity around the swirl. And when people want to escalate your reality and bring you into the swirl. And if you know, if we're all at 12, boo, I can't be on a 12 with you, right? Like we somebody has to be on a two, and so one of us has to be on two boo boo, because I can't. We all can't. There can't be eight of us in this room on a 12. And so the other piece that I try to remind people is, yes, this is important, and I do not. I am not holding a scalpel in my hand right now, right? I am not about to cut into someone's brain. I There is power in pause. Sometimes we have to take a moment to pause, get clarity, kind of back out of the swirl, and be able to think in a way that makes the best sense, because that is care about the next best moment and trying to lead with intention. The other thing about care that I've learned, and probably the the biggest leadership lesson in my life, is that all people the world over are seeking one thing, and that's validation. And how whatever that form is, that it shows up, we all want validation in some form or another. And so this idea around you know, we all have three things in common, no matter who we are, that you know, the three of us on this call may have very different backgrounds, may have very different experiences, may have very different lived realities, but in some form, we all want to know, do you see me? Do you hear me? It does what I say matter, and that's what it's about. When you have a con, when a student has a conflict in the classroom, when a student is a conflict in the residence hall, when a colleague and you have a conflict, when you're boothing at home, and you have a conflict, it's because one someone doesn't see, either feel like they've been seen, that they've been heard, or that they matter in some way, and so thinking around that and that that's a culture of care. You know, culture of care, it's also not how you talk, it's how you design. How are you designing policies? How are you designing spaces that let people know they matter, that make it to where leaders don't want to disappear when things get hard and crisis happens. And that, you know, we also know that care is not soft. A lot of times we think that care, oh, if he's talking about care, oh, this dude becomes this dude talking about care. Again, no, care is not soft. Care is one of the hardest things you can do. I have led, yeah, California. We, we use this book with our veterans. We had one of the most successful veterans that are in California. We use this as a leadership book with our veterans. Since I've been here, we've used this work with our football team. Care is not soft, care is intentional, it's structured, and care is accountability. Yeah, care is accountability and how you choose or choose not to show up for others, right? And care has, care is intentional, and I think we, we sometimes mistake it for soft and cuddly when it's actually quite courageous.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  31:53  
Clint-Michael, I want to, I want to shift gears, but I want to stay with a C word, right? And that's the word collaboration. We met just a few minutes ago, but I was at Northern Illinois from 2004 2007 created the Academic Advising Center there. I know that there's been a big push to improve retention and graduation rates there, and Northern is had some strong momentum here recently. What is it about? So in student affairs, how have you collaborated with the academic side of the house and in meaningful ways to impact the student experience at NIU?

Clint-Michael Reneau  32:29  
Yeah, I think the other thing about it is, is that number one students don't see, you know, students don't see org charts. They don't see actual divisions, they actually don't know what the hell any of that is. And, yeah, they don't, they don't get it. They don't care about it. And so at a certain point, we have to get out of our own mess and out of our own way around that. That's great. My most important relationship really needs to be, you know, I need to have. Some of the most important relations I need to have are with the provost, with our academic counterparts, with our colleagues, with our diversity VP, you know, with the President, around thinking about, how do we so what we have is we have a, what we call a Student Experience team that I help lead, and it is a group of leaders who come together from academic affairs, student affairs, diversity, equity, inclusion, and we really look at, how are we utilizing high tech, high touch ways, whether it's aI things that we've working to transcend whether it's how we're using alerts and systems to take and and center the humanity in this work. How are we working with faculty who, you know, maybe a student hasn't shown up for two weeks? Okay? So then now we've got a we're aware of a Community Advisor is knocking on the door. The hall director is talking to them. We got somebody in our Center for Student Assistance that's doing things. Are we looking at re enrollment campaigns? How do we how do we assist? How's my team assistant? How do we look at registration pieces? What are we doing with that? How are we making connections to the Husky Academic Success Center and getting folks connected to supplemental instruction, getting them registered for you know, we know that supplemental instruction has a massive impact on persistence, and so thinking about, how are we really familiarizing ourselves with the work, and how are we then cross training and helping people to see themselves responsible for those connections?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  34:41  
It's fantastic. Love it.

Kevin Thomas  34:43  
Clint-Michael, you, you mentioned earlier, you know, the environment is prickly. I don't know what word we should use here, like, not great, but your role, right? Like you've been. An international trainer, facilitator on diversity, equity and inclusion. You know what? What are the big mistakes organizations are making when they're doing this work? And I guess my you know, great question is, like, how has that evolved into where we're at today? And like, how you support that and your role as a leader, yeah. And Brody and I, again, I'm gonna use the example of our administrators Institute. There are schools that will refuse to send people to a conference in an institute, if anything, diversity, equity, inclusion is listed on the agenda, yeah. And so like, that's the reality we sit in today versus when we would have got into this field, where it wasn't viewed in the light that it is now viewed in.

Clint-Michael Reneau  35:51  
Yeah, I would say, you know, I'm going to be honest with you, the real work around this, whether it's diversity, equity, inclusion, whether it's access, whatever the case may be, it's you have to understand, is it done in a way that makes it real, or is it performative? Yeah, because we know there are places and spaces that it's formative. You know, when the when the work is real, it's understanding where resources going. How are we looking at analytics that move the needle? How are we understanding trends around analytics and and how does that translate into what are we doing with DFW courses? What are we looking around from a bridge work? What are we looking around how student organizations are funded at access and equity models. How are we looking at leadership development, training? You know, it's about who gets access, who gets resources. You know, if it's if it's not going to change outcomes, it's not it's not strategy. It's storytelling. Makes you feel good, it makes you feel cute, makes you feel oh, that's that savior complex. But the reality is, it has to change outcomes. And so I think that when you anchor the work, the question has to be, it's never the language is always going to shift. I don't care. I actually, I'm not even gonna get caught up on what we call it. I'm not everyone get caught up on that. I'm not gonna that's not the will I'm dying on. That's not the battle I'm going for. Yeah, language is going to shift. The reality is, the work remains, and the students that we have to serve, and the and the fact that, you know, we think about principles around access, like Universal Design for Learning. Yes, about that helps everyone. Everyone doesn't help just some. It helps everyone. When you think about, you know, again, the question is not, what do we call it? The question is, Are students better off because of it? And so, you know, when we get up and get caught up into semantics, it becomes an us versus them, whoever the them is, and the ones that always pay the price will be our students. And so, you know, I think that when you treat it like an event or a workshop, you miss the mark, because it's really about the reallocation, the recognition, the understanding around power, attention structures, and being able to hold a mirror in front of yourself and ask yourself some questions that might be uncomfortable, but ask yourself some questions around, where am I responsible in this? And then, what do we do? Yeah, and let's get to it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  39:10  
Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think the work is what matters in creating structures and spaces that everyone can be successful. But the Universal Design piece really has struck me as really a helpful way to kind of think about things, for sure. So I appreciate that that example, it's really good. Clint Michael, you've, you've used some you've used queer theory specifically to kind of push back on hegemonic masculinity in higher ed. You know, what are, what are you seeing on campuses right now when it comes to how we support men like I'm very interested in that, specifically first generation men. And where are we still falling short? 

Clint-Michael Reneau  39:52  
I will tell you my if you look at my background, my research interests, my writings, publications, all that kind of stuff. I anchor a lot of. Work in queer theory. And again, queer theory is really about it asks us kind of see, think about what we've been trained in as considering or what we've been normalized, to think about what's normal, what's expected. Who gets to be defined as normal, who gets to be defined as, you know, who benefits from it, what, and who gets left out because of it, and so, you know, queer theory actually doesn't really give us answers. What it does is it gives us better questions to really queer, something to question, to challenge to look at assumptions. And I think that when we do that, as with leadership, that you know leadership at its best is not about having the right answers. Leadership at its best is really about understanding how to ask the questions that change what people are able to see and change what ways in which people are able to think and to consider different aspects and so, you know, I will tell you that when, when we look at men and look at issues of masculinity and manhood, we have to understand, you know, theory helps us with it. There are multiple modalities and multiple modes of masculinities, right there are. We can all have different understanding, understanding of how we show up as masculine, and what masculinities look like and how we perform. And I will tell you that I've had to unlearn certain things. There are ways that have impacted the ways that I have thought that I had to choose to perform masculinity in certain spaces that became unhealthy for me, that stunted my own leadership, my own growth, and I will tell you, there are ways that I have to reimagine what healthy looks like for me as a man, as someone who identifies as a man. And so I will say that in our work, you know, I, my biggest champions have been my Greek life system, our fraternities, our veterans, in places that I've worked, because I've really been able to, you know, I'm very clear with students about you know you will know I love you and you also know I will. I'm also listen, if I got to cuss you out in the same breath, I will love you and I will hold you accountable at the same time, right? And I'm going to show up. This is how I show up, and I show up. And so what you see is, is you're going to get the the multiple pieces that I show up with. And so I think that I again teaching folks to understand leadership, masculinity, all of it's connected. It's around helping us to ask and challenge ourselves to ask the questions, around seeking how we change what people are able to see about ourselves, about each other.

Kevin Thomas  43:14  
It's great. Listen, this is not a question on our list, but you know, as we're sitting here and for our audio listeners today, Clint-Michael, is your office, the Oval Office, like you got the oval walls behind you.

Clint-Michael Reneau  43:28  
What is happening here? I will tell you. So my office, I'll be honest with you, it's in a it's in a castle. So we are old main is, like this old castle building. It's beautiful. Yeah, it's, it's a nice, I will tell you. It's a nice office of a nice space. I listen my the Raggedy thing about me. I don't have anything hanging on. I don't have any pictures up. I need to put some pictures up on the wall. I have stuff all throughout, but I don't have anything hanging on the wall. Also, partly because the walls are kind of curved, and it makes it a little but yeah, so there's, yeah, there's turrets, there's all kinds of stuff going on. Brother, this is, Listen, this is, I'm up in the castle now. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  44:10  
The castle on the hill. I remember it. Clint-Michael, I remember it well.

Kevin Thomas  44:15  
Listen, then Ed Sheeran wrote a song about it, like we do, and you better be loud, the thing

Clint-Michael Reneau  44:20  
you bet my little British Ed Sheeran. I lived in London. That's my London boy, through and through. I love that.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  44:27  
That song makes me cry every time, every time. I love that song so much. It May I try to sing it, and I can't do it. I cry every time.

Clint-Michael Reneau  44:37  
And he does something about photographs too. I think, I think he does a song about, oh, yeah, listen, don't, don't. I can't do it. I can't do it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  44:46  
I can't either we're on the same page. How'd that happen?

Kevin Thomas  44:50  
We jumped away there. But all of a sudden I'm like, man, like this office has a vibe. So if you're listening on the podcast today, keep listening and then go. Back and re watch on YouTube later on, because this office is is a vibe. I dig it Well, Michael, you have had leadership roles in crisis communication. This is an area that I grew up in a little bit as well. What's, what's one thing you know about how institutions respond to crisis that maybe you didn't know earlier in your career and that you wish more people in higher education grasped at this moment?

Clint-Michael Reneau  45:25  
I will tell you that anyone listening, you know, I had, I've been at a campus before, and I did a tabletop exercise with a group, and someone raised their hand and said, Well, you know, this is all well and good. This is fine, but this situation would never happen here. And the reality is, I tell folks, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when whatever variation of something happens, but it is a matter of when I will tell you that every crisis holds two truths about it. You have, you know, every crisis will, every situation holds two truths and the what I'm learning, what I continue to learn, what I have learned is that accountability matters, and that your institution, the people working the crisis, accountability matters in response, in preparation, in a an analysis of how We review and examine it afterwards, in the students that may be involved, whatever the situation is, accountability matters. And so that's the first truth. Second truth is, humanity matters. And so both of those are true at the same time, and when you're dealing with a crisis, again, people, you know the what I what I tell about people, the biggest thing that I've learned about people, and again, we are all in the people business, is that you are the Most important work you will ever do. You are? It's not about what your job title is, what your salary is, what your you know, whatever you are the most important work you'll ever do, because if you don't do the self work, you're going to bleed onto people that never cut you. Something at some point is going to trigger you. Something is going to give you angst. You're going to spin, you're going to sabotage, you're going to do something. And so you better go back and get real clarity around the self work, right? Because we often see in crisis when folks elements of whatever that work that hasn't been worked on resolve, thought about starts to show up and again, people want you to be at a level 32 right when out of 10. And you know, speed is not the same thing as clarity. And yes, crisis that you need to be prepared to respond, but you better have some clarity in the game. And clarity means you also need to have some preparation and understand that preparation is necessary. And so, you know, I thought earlier on in my career that that's the goal was to respond instantly, and I better have everything instantly to figure out. And the reality is, crisis. You know, any kind of crises teaches us. A crisis teaches us that truth is, you know, that trust is either built or broken. It's either built or it's broken, and so you've got to know that you want to respond correctly, and you want to respond with credibility, and that has to have some clarity when you're in the moment. So it's also knowing how to do the self work, so you can try to self regulate in those moments of crisis, so that you can do all that you can to respond correctly with what you know and to speak with credibility.

Kevin Thomas  49:30  
Yeah, I appreciate in several of your answers, you've said something, and this week, I was critical of person I know that sometimes their answer is, if I get it done as quick as humanly possible, then I achieve my goals. And there's been a couple of things you've said, and this isn't a question more than, I guess, a comment of just like, sometimes Patience is the virtue that leads to success. And you've said that in a couple of different answers, your crisis answer, and then also an answer, I think, earlier on. On some of your work with Dei. And I'll just say I appreciate that approach, because a two list getting done first doesn't mean the to do list was done right.

Clint-Michael Reneau  50:11  
Yeah, I can get you something in your inbox. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  50:16  
I mean, that's why my inbox is 2500 Kevin, yeah, I don't believe I gotta get it right, not fast.

Clint-Michael Reneau  50:25  
I can get you something in your inbox, but that doesn't mean that it's been done with clarity, accuracy, without harm, without, you know, broken trust. I i also need to and my also, but I also listen. I'm also not. I don't want people think that I'm, you know, I'm taking seven days to let me sit with it and ponder, like, you know, the meaning of life, like I'm not trying to do that either. I need you understand this is not Yeah, but there is an appropriate level of getting the clarity needed to respond in a way that's, you know, that's as accurate as possible with what you know, and that allows you to show up in a credible manner, right? It's great.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  51:13  
Clint, Michael, you I know you've won some awards with NASA and a range of leadership honors, and like Kevin and I, you're also a faculty member for the Dungey Leadership Institute and as Institute chair for the NASA AVP Institute. I'm curious, what do you see in the professionals who are going to lead this field well into the next decade, like, what do they have? What what do they bring to the table that's going to be useful for old guys like me.

Clint-Michael Reneau  51:42  
Listen, I, you know, I think that when I always tell folks, and this is also me, like I laugh at everything, or I try to find humor in everything, I'm also the most self deprecating person. Like, I, it's also Mike. I also realize it's a coping mechanism. But I you know number one, you got to be able to understand levity and understand that this work is hard, and you better be able to find joy somewhere and something, and you, you, you've got to be able to understand that piece and some laughter and some some light moments and very hard and complex stuff. The other thing that leaders are bringing to the table, that that we need, and that will continue to be that folks have to have as we look for leaders who are wanting to grow, stretch and reimagine this field in the next several years and decades, is that you better have some emotional intelligence. If do not have a clue around emotional intelligence, how to use it, how to lead with it, how to guide with it, how to energize, explore policy, inspire involvement, engagement, any of that kind of stuff. You know, emotional intelligence has to be there. Leaders are bringing systems thinking, because this other thing around just my little area of the world, if I am only thinking about this department. I'm only thinking about this division. If I am only thinking about this structure, I better understand how AI moves across the board everywhere. I better understand what it looks like in terms of our I better have a real clear understanding around systems thinking, with enrollment management. I better have a real clear understanding around what the academic enterprise means for all of us. I better have a real clear understanding that we are all responsible to be retention specialists and what it means to be a graduation specialist, and we better all understand that work, if you don't have systems thinking level work, you've already you've eliminated yourself. And then the other thing is, leaders are bringing to the table, and what leaders will continually have to do is to have comfort in making decisions amidst ambiguity. I don't have to tell either one of you there is not y'all we some days, sometimes you wake up and you're like, is this the Twilight? What is this like? Is this am I stuck on stupid? Am I stuck on stupid? Like, I am stuck on stupid today? Like, there is not a playbook for this mess, right? There's not a playbook. I ain't going to page 35 section 21 and it's gonna be like, Look below the fold. You This is what you're doing. There's not a playbook. And so the reality is, when you accept the seat, you have to accept the seat of leadership and understand that you're going to have to make decisions that are going to be hard and complex, and you're going to do it. In a sense that has a lot of ambiguity, and you have to do it, and you need to do it with self awareness.

Kevin Thomas  55:07  
All right, I think we have a couple questions more before we get to the lightning round, and I'm going to start with the one here. If you had a billboard outside the next NASPA conference, what would it say? And I don't know where this is gonna go, so I'm like, Oh,

Clint-Michael Reneau  55:27  
listen. I mean, is this? Is this a billboard? So listen, is this I'm not, like, single ready to mingle. He needs to find a boo, like, accepting dinner dates. Like, what? No. Okay, so All right, so that's one billboard. Maybe I would say, you know, board, I can't stand you. I a billboard. I would probably say something around like student success. Student success is not a program, right? It's Student Success is a system, and we are all involved in the system design accordingly.

Kevin Thomas  56:20  
Now, which billboard would get more more replies, the single mingle or the Student Success is a system.

Clint-Michael Reneau  56:24  
Well, I would say, and the one who is encouraging you to design accordingly and to get behind this and get engaged and enamored with student success, also the one who is designed this billboard is single rate mingle and can go on a dinner date. Thanks, both and Doctor Thomas, it could be a both end. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  56:49  
So we'll stay we'll stay personal here, like you've lived in Texas, Massachusetts, Louisiana, California, London and now Illinois, right? How do you think about place? Does it shape your leadership? Are you someone who carries your world with you like what does that look like?

Clint-Michael Reneau  57:06  
I will tell you. The greatest education I've ever had in my life is, you know, when you talk about carrying the world with you, that's really it. I mean, the The truth is, the no matter where I've lived, no matter the through line, and everything I've done is a belief that people are the ones that change. You know, institutions. Institutions are institutions, right? They but, but people are at the heart of institutions, and that's what changes things. And so, you know, every role I've had, every campus I've been on, every country I've worked in, every city, every every state, you know, I've drawn, I've been drawn to places and spaces where systems have to meet humanity. There has to be this idea of meeting humanity and asserting human dignity. You know, we we look for the pain, where are the pain spaces? Where that, where the where the pain moments. Then what do we do with policy associated with that? And so, you know, I've never really been interested in about the positionality piece of it, but it's about being interested in holding space. And I think I've always been drawn to showing up and into the heart, into the hard work, the complex work, and learning everything you can that's beautiful and hard and wonderful and and gross and problematic and fun, and with every place I've been in, learning from it, and then understanding that when you're in those spaces, learning from all of that, what it's teaching you is about curiosity, and really understanding that leadership has to be curiosity, and that we are much better when we lead with curiosity than if, if we are trying to lead in a space of absolute certainty. And that's what all these wonderful places have done for me. It's It's taught me to remain curious.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  59:12  
Yeah, absolutely Ted lasso style, like be curious, not judgmental, right?

Clint-Michael Reneau  59:18  
Listen, come on now. Let's go.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  59:22  
Kevin and I have been talking about this, right? We've been talking about or maybe I've been talking about it, but like these ideas of like thinking about the places where we've been and the lessons and the lessons we've taken from those places both of us have been it in three or four spots, right in our professional career, I think each of them have taught us something really, really valuable, and so I really appreciate that idea that you've shared, right and I just think that's a fun exercise to kind of reflect on in every every location I've been, what were the real lessons, and how have they scaffolded to the point where I am today.

Clint-Michael Reneau  1:00:01  
Absolutely and absolutely Brody. The thing about that is, is life is always a teacher. Life is a teacher. And life actually is your curriculum. Life is your curriculum. And so you better read the hell out of that syllabus. You better understand the curriculum, be open to it, because you will have the most every space every season teaches you something, whether it's beautiful and a wonderful season to be, or it's really a hard, complex, tough season, you are still and I try to tell people all the time, sometimes you are going your best. Learning edges come from the hard and complex and things that you maybe don't want to repeat yourself or don't want to see in your own leadership, but you're learning from it, right? And so life is always showing up to

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:00:46  
teach you. Love it so much.

Kevin Thomas  1:00:49  
I think we're at the lightning round.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:00:51  
I know this is really it's hard clip, Michael, we haven't asked any hard questions yet.

Clint-Michael Reneau  1:00:55  
No, not at all. Lightning round, All right, y'all are real fancy. That lightning round little logo made me sit up and pay attention. We knew he'd like it. I was like,

Kevin Thomas  1:01:13  
Brody mentioned the cities that you've lived in. So what's your favorite city that you've ever lived in?

Clint-Michael Reneau  1:01:18  
Oh my gosh, dude, I'm i Well, you know, I love London. I'm, I'm, I love London. I've got family in in the UK. I love London. It's an amazing city. I also loved New Orleans. New Orleans was, it is a great city. Amazing, amazing, amazing.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:01:36  
It's a dirty Vegas. 

Clint-Michael Reneau  1:01:39  
It is complex and beautiful, and just it is just, I love it so much. The, you know, the food, the people, the spirit. I I also enjoy, you know, I enjoy, you can have a I love getting to Chicago, you know, I'm certainly not in Chicago, but I love, I, you know, there's just there. Every place has been really cool. I've loved it. And it's, it's always been good dude. I can always find a good time about wherever I'm at. What's it? What's a good city as well? Austin was a great city.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:02:14  
Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, what? What's a hidden talent most people don't know about?

Clint-Michael Reneau  1:02:20  
Oh, Lord, um hidden talent. I, y'all, I don't know I, I, I think a lot of people think, you know, I love to laugh. I I'm a jokester. I love to laugh. I love to joke around. But I'm also really pretty deeply introspective and reflective and thinking around what philosophical and that kind of stuff. And so when I lock in, you know, and as soon talk about, we lock in, as I lock in, and when I'm in the zone and I'm ready and I need to knock something out, and people are like, Oh, what, yes, we all can do that too, but I am a hidden talent. I listen. I always think I can dance. I mean, for a white boy, I always listen. I've seen it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:03:13  
You're pretty good. Thank you, brother.

Kevin Thomas  1:03:16  
I'll take dancing. Hey, so who are professional mentors that you still lean on today? Yes, this is us. Then we're writing those names down and we'll have them on a future episodes. 

Clint-Michael Reneau  1:03:27  
So I will tell you, I always tell people, you have the you know, you get the network that you build. And so I have what's called Big elm mentors. So capital M, big M, mentors that I know personally, that love me, that challenge me, that that affirm me, cuss me out, all the kind of good stuff that I know. And then I have little m mentors that never know me, but that I either have watched interviews, read articles, listen to TED Talks. So Maya Angelou never knew. She has mentored this group in rural Texas, you know, and some of these university presidents that admire never knew that they mentor me weekly when I pay attention that kind of stuff. So I will think, I think that, you know, when you think about but the personal mentors I think about, I think about people like Dr Sherry Ben, who is the vice president at Tarleton State. She was the assistant dean of students when I was a student, and I will tell you, as someone first gen queer, having a disability, navigating that in college. And I had, I had my delay, my graduations was delayed because I didn't realize that I was, I had a disability. I didn't, you know, some mental health stuff and everything and and I had had a plan. So. That I would not be here today, not in this role as a vice president, but I wouldn't be here on this planet had it not been for her. Yeah, power, like she said, she saw me and she saved me, and so she's some of the mentors me, I think about, you know, Doctor Subaru, Borrego, you know, two time university president, three time vice president. I think about folks like Dr Mildred Garcia, the first Latina chancellor in the CSU system. I think about Dr Bernie sia Johnson, means first woman president at Cal State. La, you know, there's, there's people that come in here and really do some things that are powerful for you. And think about how they coach you, love you, talk to you and help you, really challenge to you, to think in different ways.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:05:59  
That's amazing. Yeah, you got a free weekend. What's it going to look like? Like? What's an ideal weekend for you?

Clint-Michael Reneau  1:06:05  
Dude? Listen, I'm so tired right now. We're in the celebration of seat. We celebrate everything, everybody, all the everywhere. So I'm on campus every night. I will tell you a free weekend right now? Well, two things. One, I go between, I want to be up in the bed all weekend long, maybe have a cute little dirty martini up in there somewhere, and I want to binge as much trash Netflix show, whatever I'm watching. I want to binge all the seasons, like in one weekend, without having to get out of bed and then sleeping. And so I like that, versus sometimes if I'm not, if I don't have to work, like I don't have work responsibilities one weekend of the month where I'm not at an event, speaking or something like that, I would get I would hop on a plane on a Friday night, at like 7pm go to some city or country, hop back on a plane on a Sunday night, or get back in at Island at 6:30am on a Monday, hop in my car and drive back to work because I'm like, Listen, you going to go and do and so that that's either see the windows, it's either it's either no middle ground here. It's either full foot on gas and I'm going and I've got like, 24 to 48 hours and I'm doing it big, or I'm up in pajamas, probably falling asleep with Chip crumbs in my bed and watching nothing but trash TV.

Kevin Thomas  1:07:43  
Love it. I love it. This may be our last one favorite campus tradition that you love. And why is it wearing these red and white suspenders that you wear during football season?

Clint-Michael Reneau  1:07:54  
Oh, listen, you know, listen, those are those come out of those come out at homecoming in football. Yeah, I will tell you campus tradition. I love homecoming here. I love homecoming week. It's spirited, it's fun, it's loud. I also love, you know, the fact that I wouldn't say it's necessary, I will say our engagement numbers are insane. I mean, we have events that we typically, we will, we will have 14, 1700 people at events. Some of our signature programming that we do really, you know, we get 800 people easily to come through. And so I just love the energy, anything that there's energy where people feel like they're having a good time. They matter. They belong. Something has been designed for them. I love all that, so I'm here for it. If I need to put on some ridiculous, ugly overalls and do all that, then I'll do it and I'll go for it.

Kevin Thomas  1:08:55  
Fantastic. Michael, it has been a joy to have you on the show. Well, thank you.

Clint-Michael Reneau  1:09:01  
I have to tell y'all, y'all again, I've been fan girling for a long time. I'm glad we've made this happen. Y'all, too are pretty awesome and highly intelligent. Thank you for being thought leaders in this field. Thank you for bringing the energy. Thank you for bringing the thought and the dedication, and also just thank y'all for being such really cool podcast host. This was a very enjoyable experience. And y'all, are you both have, you know, these great little radio or podcast voices, and I'm just like...

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:09:29  
Flattery will get you everywhere, Clint-Michael. 

Kevin Thomas  1:09:35  
Second guest, yeah, bring me back, and we'll do it again. Yeah, you're even for the Tom Hanks group, right? The five times on Saturday live, we're gonna get Clint Michael back. I'm there. I'm there. Alright, thanks so much. 

Clint-Michael Reneau  1:09:48  
And always listen before. Listen before y'all go. I'm I'm just gonna do it. I'm taking a picture of us. Oh yeah, cuz Look at how cute we are. You. All right, listen, y'all be good, okay.

Kevin Thomas  1:10:05  
I adore him.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:10:07  
So fun.

Kevin Thomas  1:10:08  
Wow, I know, right. And listen, this is the thing that's probably our first selfie on the podcast. Yeah, yeah, that could become a trend. Who knows? But I tell you, I had a chance over I was part of a group that was really just, we got to interact over two months, and I felt like I learned so much from that group. And Clint-Michael stood out in it. And and, you know, there are 50 or 60 of us that were just trying to be better professionals and grow is in our leadership. And I got a lot from that experience, and Clint-Michael was a big part of that, and so I just adore him so much, and was so pleased he could join us today.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:10:49  
Yeah, you know that humanity first approach is something we've talked about, but I love that he connects that to systems, that thinking, and that's that's an area where, when I think about advising, it's a space where I've been involved that, to me, is is really an important part of the work. So I really did appreciate that, that that kind of juxtaposition of those two things from my perspective, that was really useful. You can tell he's a big thinker, too. I love it. I mean, I love that. Like he has lots of great thoughts about higher ed just generally, right? And the when we talked about the collaboration between Student Affairs and Academic Affairs, right? Kind of thinking about that as a false narrative, that it's really one, right, and that it's the student that we really have to focus in on I really dug that. It's a great reminder, right from my perspective.

Kevin Thomas  1:11:46  
Speaking of things you really dig, I know our top three is your favorite, or the top one hit wonders of all time.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:11:55  
Yeah, I was glad we kind of mentioned music, like we got into the castle on the hill, which is a fantastic Ed Sheeran Tom by one of my favorite Ed Sheeran song, but one hit wonders. I mean, those were kind of created, I a little bit before your time, like the 80s, so, you know. But, I mean, I guess there were one hit wonders in the 60s and the 70s too. 

Kevin Thomas  1:12:17  
I don't think this is an 80s thing. I think this is timeless, right, okay, well, which, what's your three hit me with it there, grandpa.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:12:23  
I love the New Radicals. You get what you give. I love gaudier. That's kind of a newer one, Somebody That I Used to Know, and then from the 90s. I can't believe I don't have an 80s one hit wonder. But Len steal, my sunshine, kind of stuck out like I would just love that track. It's such a fun, fun track. So those are my three.

Kevin Thomas  1:12:44  
I'm on board with two of your three. We'll save it for later on which one I'm like, but I'm on board with two of your three. All right, so I have Take on me by Aha. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:12:58  
You're going to make me angry.

Kevin Thomas  1:13:01  
Because you're going to say it's not a one hit wonder.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:13:02  
Absolutely. We're gonna have, we're gonna have real

Kevin Thomas  1:13:05  
big words about that. You're wrong. No one other than you and Kerry Kincanon can name another Aha. The people that were in the hot can't even name another Aha. Song I'm gonna go with. Come on.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:13:15  
Eileen, great. Let's go right.

Kevin Thomas  1:13:19  
And Ice, ice, baby by serving allies.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:13:23  
Oh, my goodness.

Kevin Thomas  1:13:24  
Love. That was very epic.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:13:26  
Dude, Aha, is one of the most successful European acts in history. They played the Nobel Peace Prize Concert in 2015 they they have multiple, multiple tracks that are amazing.

Kevin Thomas  1:13:39  
That no one other than you knows.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:13:41  
Their second album's better than their first album.

Kevin Thomas  1:13:43  
And here's my thing about Take on me is, if it was released today, it would be a hit. Yes, timeless. Not only one hit wonder, but timeless.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:13:56  
I mean, aha, has made more albums than you even would want to know. I don't know, but it's a lot, at least 10.

Kevin Thomas  1:14:04  
Listen and it's in my top three. Get out my business.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:14:07  
They're not a one hit wonder. That's all I'm going to say.

Kevin Thomas  1:14:10  
Wrap this thing up there, grumpy. It's a Friday. Calm down.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  1:14:17  
Friday for sure. Yeah, you, you're, so funny. So hey, how about this? Until the next pickup meeting, let's just do good and be nice. How about that?