Ep. 27 - A "Just Us" Episode

Kevin Thomas and Brody Broshears reflect on the energy and renewal that spring brings before exploring the complex and timely topic of graduation. Their conversation examines graduation rates, institutional responsibility, and the policies and practices that support student persistence and success as they work toward completing their degrees. 

*The Pickup Meeting is a spinoff of the Adventures in Advising podcast!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:10

And away we go. Welcome to the pickup meeting. I'm Kevin Thomas, joined always by my wonderful co-host, Brody Brochier. Uh, one of my favorite people in the world, not just in higher education. How are you doing, Brody? I'm great.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

I'm filming from home today, recording from home today, because you know, life gets in the way. I my my furnace, which is under warranty, had a bad motor, so they were in there fixing it today. And I got cable guide, right? Like they tell you they're gonna come from eight to nine, and then they show up at 10:15, and you've got this recording at 11, and so you're kind of freaking out. So I had furnace people, I had furnace people in my house 10 minutes ago.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

You were a little panicked. Listen, but we could have had them on the show, it could have been an impromptu, right? Not just us, yeah, just us and your furnace people.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Yeah, I like it. I mean, but it's going great. It's April. I'm feeling pretty good. We're getting towards the end of the school year, that's nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Yeah, and listen, it's April 8th. That's I think when we're at we're coming to you this time or in that time frame. So, like, what does that mean to you? How are you feeling on your campus? I I'm feeling pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Like, I was talking to a couple people at work the other day, and I'm hitting right at year three. In in June, it'll be three years for me. And I do think that that three-year time frame is what it really takes to kind of get your feet on the ground and feel really good. And it's weird, this campus is quite a bit bigger than the campus I was at prior to this. And uh, I still have a lot of people to meet, a lot of things to learn, but I'm feeling pretty good about my area, and I'm excited about the students that are getting ready to graduate. And and, you know, I'm working with programs where we see students graduate, and that's pretty fun. How about you?

SPEAKER_01 2:07

You know, for us, and and I know we're a little off from where you're at at the moment. We just had spring break last week, you know, last week of of March. And so it feels like this blitz that we're in right now from uh April to May is so intense this year. Um, for us, you know, registration for for uh current students is happening right now. We're seeing, you know, in the admissions world, maybe a little later decision by students in the cycle. Um, and so in the last couple weeks, we've seen some momentum that has made me stop freaking out so much because I was getting a little nervous about our numbers, and now it's looking like we're gonna bring in another healthy freshman class on campus. But it's this, it's like this blitz from April to May, and especially for us, where our grad commencement ceremony this year is April 30. April 30, undergrad, May one. So essentially, for summer at UCA, it's gonna be May, June, and July, full months with nothing other than summer enrollment and summer classes going on and orientation and camps. Like this feels weird this year.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Yeah, you know, I think about the ebbs and flows of the semester. Yesterday, here it was 80 degrees, and so I look out onto the quad, and man, the quad was lit. I mean, people playing frisbee, laying out on blankets, doing homework, and so it's a weird time too, because I think students are trying to survive, staff and faculty are trying to get to the end. So you've got this kind of dichotomy of things happening, like people trying to really enjoy the spring, but folks trying to get through the semester. It's it's a weird time, there's no doubt about that. But it's an exciting time. Like when the spring hits, I always feel a little bit better. You know, you talked about that, we talked about that extra hour of daylight, and it it the those days get longer, the weather gets bad. Like you you typed in the notes, and I thought this was great. So I want to give you credit. Like you walk outside, and it's not a personal attack. That was hilarious, and I agree with that, right? Like, we don't need a coat, no more sock caps, it's good.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Yeah, I you know, I think it's also one of these things, and I use this uh in a LinkedIn post today where you think about the academic year being uh a race, and and and I use the analogy of half marathon, and you know, the start of the um of a half marathon, and I've done two. The start is fine, you're ready to go, you're energized, you're jazzed. Yeah, like the end of it is fine, but where we're at right now is mile 10. Yeah, and you're like, please let it stop, and that's where it's at, right? Like you're in just in that like last little bit that you got to get done, and and and I think that's where we're at at this moment. Do you feel the same for like the racing analogy?

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Yeah, I mean, I've run a couple of marathons, and so to me, it's like mile 21. You're like, your body's not built for this, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:22

And that's what I think our teams are saying right now, yeah. You know, like I I in a way I'm thankful that spring break for was so late for us this year because hopefully advisors and the registrar's office and financial aid folks are ready for this burst of energy that's gonna come so that we can finish April. Um, because they shouldn't be as tired. Spring break should have been a little easier. Um, but it feels like it's gonna be a sprint here towards mile 13 of the the end of the half marathon.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Yeah, I try to give a lot of grace, you know. Like I think we canceled a meeting the other day for our all staff because people need that time to kind of get caught up. And, you know, we I try to do a few more fun things. I brought some stuff in for our leaders to kind of as a kind of a note of of uh not just congratulations, but also like thanks for the work that's happening. I think you can do some small things on the personal side that can help folks kind of push through this time because it does get tough. You know, personally, baseball starts. I always like the the like I always like baseball because it happens every day. Like there's always something to look forward to, right? Looking at the box score, seeing if your team won. If you're not a baseball fan, you might not get it. But for me, like spring means baseball, and baseball means every day I can check a score, look at a highlight. That's kind of fun too.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Yeah, I'm curious, uh, and I agree. I think that's a lot of fun. I I've not watched a baseball game yet this season, but I check out the score and I check out what's going on. Uh, I agree with you. How do you find that you pace yourself as a leader and administrator just in the day to day, knowing that there's this intensity that comes with this time of year?

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Yeah, I mean, I've I've tried to take a little bit more time. Like I've gotten much better at taking my time away. You know, cat living in Evansville has kind of helped with that. Like I've worked remotely a couple of days, which isn't something I've automatically done, um, but it's allowed me to travel to Evansville and and get get really focused in on some work, kind of some distraction-free things. I I start to set the summer too, right? Like I start, I've I've done a couple of to-do lists here this week that are really about planning. You know, it's a it's a good time to reflect. I had an annual report due last week and really uh was able to kind of get in and focused on that. And you you can just reflect on how the year went. Like, where were the holes? What are some things that are really good? And you know, I have a new boss coming in in June, right? So for me now, it's kind of like what do I share with that person? How do I get a chance to meet this candidate um during the interview process because I was at the administrators institute. So, you know, I'm gonna send him a message here this week. So I think it's just about keeping busy, right? Knowing that you've got limits and what you can accomplish and trying to find the really important things to focus in on, like thinking about the year uh and starting to get ready for the summer, like getting some things planned and ready to go. But how about you? What do you do? Like how do you pace it?

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Yeah, I think for me at this moment, it's prioritizing the moment, um, realizing students, uh a vast majority of our students are gonna be on campus. And so that level of work that's happening during the next month is the priority in a way that's different than being strategic or uh not being able to just say, hey, that can wait. And so it's putting those things that are so timely to the student experience, so timely to what's happening uh at the forefront. And that's also checking on staff, that's having conversations with my teams and just seeing how things are going and making sure that they're okay, because there's a lot of project things that can wait until May that's going to be a little emptier, June that's gonna be a little emptier with some of the regular campus uh environment going on, um, especially on our campus here. And so I, you know, it's like really focusing on what you need to focus on right now and knowing that some of the other stuff can wait until campus slows down just a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Yeah, you know, I think uh primarily the work in university college here, we're working with younger students. And so, you know, some of those students are locked in, they've met with their advisor, they've already registered for the fall semester if they're taking summer courses. But you know, you we do have students that are in crisis too, and some that maybe are still trying to sort out whether they're gonna come back for the fall. And so that push has kind of begun too, right? We're starting to kind of look at like where do we have students in trouble? How can we help them? You know, what can we do to ensure that they're in their best space when they leave campus in May? And it's different than the fall, right? Because they're back right away. If there was a problem, you kind of have to sort it out right away. But when students leave campus in May, man, they're gone for two or three months at least. And sometimes, if you don't get that sorted out, you know, so you have to be really intentional because if you don't get that sorted out, it just really can be harder to get them back if that's really their goal. And of course, it's our goal to make sure students get where they want to be. And so, yeah, it's it's a it's an interesting time. The priorities have to be a little bit different.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

I agree with that, and often that where students want to be uh is graduation, right? Which is coming up, yeah, it is, and and so I, you know, part of our conversation today is about graduation, but more specifically about graduation rates. And you and I have worked at similar institutions. We're in the conversations of student success and and graduation success. So when you look at institution, uh institutional graduation rates, what what do you think that story is and and also what's it leaving out?

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Yeah, you know, I think uh I always love the numbers are people and people are numbers. And we are, you know, our strategic plan here at ISU does highlight increases in graduation rates according to the iPads data. And so I don't want to suggest that those numbers aren't critically important, but they are only one piece of the puzzle.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

I mean, I don't think you're alone in that, right? Like I think every single campus's strategic plan or goals has the graduation rates as a part of it.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yeah, but but we are missing out. I mean, so thanks, Kevin. Yes, absolutely. I mean, but but I think from my perspective, the last couple of places I've worked in, I sense that we've worked in similar places. Transfer student success is a real critical component of the institutions where I've worked, right? We bring in a ton of transfer students and we want those students to graduate. And so that's one place where if we're not tracking that specifically, you kind of lose maybe part of the picture, right? And that is how do we how do we work with, how do we retain and graduate transfer students? So that's not iPets data, but it's something we need to be paying attention to and need to be tracking pretty pretty clearly, because if we don't, I think we're missing a big part of the story of the institutions, at least where I've worked for sure. You too?

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Yeah, I it's similar. And and just for our audience, real quick, I want to I want to do some teaching. If you think about and and and and this is interesting to me because I think that sometimes we make the assumption that people understand graduation rates, and it doesn't always happen that way. That's right. Let's talk about graduation rates real quick, and and you talk about the four, five, six year that the iPads data will look at, and you say, Well, we're graduating this many students on our campus every year. Yeah, and bro, to your point of like transfer students, well, they don't really count in that number and um readmit students if after a certain period of time they don't really count that number, and certain students that enter in a different way, right? And so, like, really, when you're looking at graduation rates, you're saying that freshman cohort that came to a campus, so the freshman class that comes in, and let's just for example reason say your your institution brings in a thousand freshmen. Well, then after six years, if your graduation rate is 60% one, congratulations on a pretty good graduation for a lot of institutions, but that means that 600 of that initial thousand are graduating and that 400 are not. And I think that people don't realize that that's how that number is factored. And so I think you're correct in that the story that's missing there is we tell a fairly solid story for how freshmen start and graduate, but then we ignore everyone else. And and I would say, to your point on the transfer part of this, that I think is such a key part of the conversation, the story on transfer is so unique to an institution on how they factored the data that it's really uh it's it's a messy data point to say, well, UCA does this, but WKU does this, and Mississippi State does, you know, it everybody's doing that transfer story in a different way, and it's not really helpful to tell that positive story of how well your students are doing beyond the freshman student that enters in that initial cohort.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

And you and I both know this too, right? Like if you use the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center, you can get a better feel for like at the University of Southern Indiana, we I always felt like we were a big exporter of students that ended up graduating somewhere else because I'm not sure we were automatically a first choice destination institution. We were a pretty heavy commuter campus. We grabbed from four or five local counties. But a lot of times our students, if they were successful in year one and maybe year two, they went up the road to Purdue or to IU or to Murray or Western Kentucky and got a degree at those places. And, you know, if you look at that data and you start to track your students that have left and still earn a credential, right? The picture looks a little bit different and really meaningfully different than what iPads might suggest, right? We were starting to share some of that data with our board because we thought that was really important to know that, hey, students that start with us do graduate. They don't automatically graduate with us, but they do graduate. And that that that tension in that kind of data is really unpleasant sometimes, right? Because ultimately we want students to earn degrees, and we know a lot of students do transfer. So um it's weird to kind of have to report on that as a metric of success, but I think it is it is closing the loop on the story to a certain extent.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Yeah, and I think that depending on the seats that you sit in, it's also important that student success uh folks are part of conversations with strategic plans, um, accreditation visits, uh goals for the institution, whatever it might be, because I've sat in a number of meetings in my career where people have said things like, we just need to raise the graduation rates by five percent. I I like the goal. I think that's fantastic. Yeah. Generally, because it's freshman to freshman, you can tell if that's a possibility or not, right? Like there's an institution in the state of Arkansas. I'm just gonna not call them out completely. I'm just gonna use their data, that their freshman to sophomore retention rate was 66% this last year. And it was a drop of 11% from the year before. Wow. Right. I mean, that's that's not great. Um, but when they're looking at their goals for what graduation's gonna be in several years, there's no way it's gonna be at the same rate whenever they were retaining 77% than when you're retaining 11% less. But from a goal standpoint, that's not typically how we build the goals. And so, you know, if you're saying you're gonna retain or graduate 50%, well, then you need to be really specific on like what happens when you retain 11 less in the freshman year or you're retaining 10 less in the sophomore year, and how those goals can really be achieved, are you setting yourself for up for failure? And that's why it's important to be at the table, too.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Well, and you know, oftentimes I uh people will go, well, why do you why is first year retention so important? And I'm like, well, if you don't retain them past year one, you can't graduate them in four, five, or six years, right? And so you know you you need a larger pool of folks to draw from for sure. And so I I think and again, uh I think the disconnect sometimes is, you know, we've as administrators, I don't automatically need my advisors to care about the number, but this gets at some of the strategies we were talking about. We were going to talk about getting people to the finish line, and this also works in first-year retention, and that is, but we should care about the students that are in our direct responsibility. And we should know their names and we should be connected to them. We should know why they're not registering or what's stopping them from getting where they need to be, or what's the what's the blockade that's keeping them from the finish line? And if that's where we can make the biggest difference, I think, in our role as administrators, is with the staff that we supervise, just ensuring that that quality of care we're providing helps move the needle in ways that are meaningful to folks like you and me.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Yeah, I I know we've got a transition a little bit here, but I'm curious about two questions here, and and I think we can hit this. What do you feel like your institution does intentionally to make sure that those uh final semesters are in those final semesters to make sure that near completers get across the finish line?

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Well, I mean, I I think that you know, we have a great registrar's office, and I've worked at places where our registrar's offices are the ones that are conferring degrees, and I've worked at places where the the colleges are the folks doing that. And regardless of who does that, making sure that that process is good is really important. And our registrar's office does a great job kind of tracking. We do have a group within my area called retention services. I've got a couple of staff members who've done amazing work with students who are at 120 hours and aren't credentialed. And we've maybe talked about this on the show before, but they just do a fantastic job of contacting these students and figuring out what it is that's stopping them from graduating. So I think in some instances it's that they haven't even just completed the paperwork, right? Like that's all they have to do to earn the degree. And in other instances, they're one class short or they can't afford to get here. And so then we have these supports. We have a persistence committee that has dollars that can aid a student getting to the finish line. And so I think from that perspective, just even in the last three years, that's gotten a lot more systematic on our campus right now. And I've really come to appreciate that work because I think single-handedly it's helped improve our four and six-year grad rates.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

We have a graduation success team in the registrar's office that works with the advising community as well. And so, really, uh, I would say they would probably say at 90 hours they start to dig in differently and look at things. But I think the truth of that is that they're probably digging in in that 60 to 75 already to say, what are you taking? How is this gonna look? And so they're doing checks with faculty to say, hey, these students are on pace to graduate. Are they doing okay, or do we need to have other conversations with them at this point? And and so it's a it's an outreach that's not only to the student, but it's an outreach that's to the faculty. And it's also making sure that if students failed classes between fall and spring, that you're getting into the right class. Classes because you're close to graduating. And I think that level of dedication from your registrar's office in combination with your student success teams and your academic advising teams, I give a lot of credit to that group for reasons why we went from the mid-40 graduation rates when I got here to being in that low 50s and striving for that the mid-50s that we've progressed to in the last few years, that that team has been a huge part of that success.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Yeah, look at at the University of Southern Indiana, our acad, the academic side of the house really kind of stepped up right prior to my departure. I mean, we had department chairs that were really focused in on that process. Like I said, in some of those spaces, in a couple of the colleges, deans and department chairs were conferring the actual degrees. And so I always appreciated that commitment from the academic side of the house too. Uh it's really good to see department chairs care about the graduation rates of their students within their own department. And when you can when you can have a chair reaching out to a faculty member who's reaching out to a student now, like that's the that's the full support that's needed to kind of get people to the finish line. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

All right, and our and and our last question before we get to a top three here today, and I think this is philosophical in some ways. I'm I'm curious where you're gonna go on this. Oh god. Is there a difference between a student who has the ability to finish and a student who has the support to finish? And if so, how are we closing that gap? Dang, I know, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:37

You did me wrong. Sure, I I think there is definitely a difference on both sides, right? Like, I mean, I think look, I've seen plenty of students graduate despite our worst efforts at institutions. So let's start on that side. I mean, I think that I think we have lots of talented students who are able to maneuver through a barrage of bureaucracy that sometimes is really, really painful. But on the other side, I I do think that everywhere where I've been, I think mostly people really care and want students to graduate. And so at the end of the day, the supports do matter. But I I think any student that we admit is capable of graduating. And then the question is what kind of support are we willing to provide to help students get to the finish line? And are we are we are we more helpful than less helpful most of the time? I mean, I think people like you and me help remove barriers. I I have tons of staff, we have tons of faculty who are working to remove barriers, but sometimes those barriers still rear their ugly heads. And so we have to do a little extra from time to time. And if we're unwilling to do that, there are certainly students that are capable, but then don't get there.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Yeah, I look at it in this way, and and I kind of think about this because of the work that I've done in retention, is that there is a large number of students that I don't need to worry about, right? Like they're going to be fine. They're gonna find their way because it that's how they're driven, they're gonna find their way because that's what they do, they're gonna find their way because somehow this is easier for them than others.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Um, but when you look at that question of um just the the ability to to accomplish versus the support needed, if you can't pay to finish, you can't finish. If you can't get the support you need to get through the math course that's just kicking you in the in the the rear end, you can't get through the math course. And so that's where offices like financial aid and you know, tutoring and supplemental uh instruction and education opportunities come in that it wouldn't matter, you know, like there's that there's a balance between it. And so it's like, do I think there are some students that can just do it? I do, right? Um, but I think there are a healthy number of students that without the support, without that guide, their desire and ability wouldn't matter because they're not getting through that moment. You know, for me, it was math tutoring and learning how to study. I, you know, I wouldn't have gotten through those things without some help along the way.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Yeah, the yes, I agree with that. And I think the good news, so to me, the good news, the takeaway is I think over the last 10 years, wherever I've been, whether it's visiting campuses and talking about graduation, I think we are seeing a more proactive approach to getting students to the finish line, like we've seen with first-year retention efforts too. And so to me, that's the real good news, it is there are a lot of success stories. And I know we still have the murky middle. Like I don't want to ignore sophomores and juniors, their retention matters too. But but I think that um I think that that making sure that we treat the end of a student's experience the way that we treat the beginning, which is helping them get to the finish line in real systematic, supportive ways, is important. And I think I've seen that from time to time here a lot more intentionally uh the last 10 years or so.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

All right. So as we always do, we close out with a top three. And since we've been talking about the finish line, we figured we'd make this a little personal. Uh, top three things you wish somebody had told you at graduation, um, personal, professional, life advice, anything goes. And and I know uh you're still sitting there thinking about it, so I'm gonna fire away with three that hit hit for me.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Oh, good, good.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Uh one, I you know, I think about this a lot is that where you're at in the journey and in that moment of graduating, and as you're talking to students that are graduating, I think that they students kind of view this as an end. And and so I think some of that guidance that I was really glad to receive is this isn't the end, this is the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Um, and and and so I would point that out is that this is the beginning of a journey, not necessarily the end. It's just a maybe a closing of a chapter. Um, the other thing that I think is is really powerful, and I use this a lot when I do keynotes and presentations, is the importance of saying thank you. Thank you to people that supported you in that journey. Thank you to people that were instrumental in you being able to complete the goals you wanted to complete. Um, you know, whatever that was, uh, and whoever that was, to say thank you. Write them a note, write them a letter, send them an email. I promise you, on this end of things, the more people that say thank you for the journey that you're on, the better. Um, and and so that would be the second thing. And the last thing, uh, because it gets really serious as you're working with students and you're going through this period of graduation, is that you're focused on where am I gonna live next? And do I have a job and all the stresses of life, tell students to have fun, right? Like, like I think there's this thought the college is over, so the fun stops, and it's like that's not that doesn't have to be it. So have fun. Those are the three pieces that come to mind for me.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

I mean, if you ask me, like, what are three things I I would want to know? Like, I the first thing I guess I would say is, you know, like the life things, like save your money, you know, just don't waste your money right away, like this young time, start investing, make sure you're in the retirement plan right away. Like, if you got if you've got a job, like fully get that money in there. I mean, I wasted so much money in my 20s, it's crazy, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:45

And at that point for you, it was this person coming up and being like, hey, you don't need the VHS player today, and and for me it was you don't need the DVD player today.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

So uh yeah, I mean, I think the other thing too that we sometimes you talked about it being the beginning, and I think that is really important, but I I'd even add to that, and then the one thing I've told my daughters is like nothing's permanent, like we all have choices, like so. If you make a choice after you graduate and it doesn't go the way that you want it to go, choose something different, right? Nothing's permanent, and so I always thought, God, I've got to choose my career right now, like I've got to do these things right now. And sure, you've got to have a job and you've got to work hard in your job, or you've got to keep going to school. And and so to me, I think the advice that I would give is like nothing's permanent. And and the third is ultimately like you're the commander, right? You're like you're in charge of your own destination, right? So, you know, get what you want, get what you need once you graduate. And sometimes that means a chain of change of scenery, sometimes it means thinking about your career a little bit differently. I mean, I I those are kind of two of the same thing, but they are slightly different, right? We all have choices that we can make, and nothing is going to be permanent. And so you really should be focused in on what it is you want to accomplish and get that done. Yeah, I like it a lot. Hey, good job on your three. I did okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Yours were yours were way more thought out. Listen, you know, I'm I'm a deep think thinker. That's what it was. Uh, but big thanks as always to everyone who listens, shares, and keeps reaching out to us, especially those folks that have emailed at the pickup meeting at gmail.com. Uh uh, I'd like to give a little shout out here to Mo Schaefer, uh, who sent us an email and was telling us what she thought about a certain show. And it was positive. Let me let me say it was positive. Um and and was it was gloating a little bit, not like to the level that somebody does about their football team, but gloating a little bit about how well their Iowa Hawkeyes did in the tournament this year. Um, we always love hearing from you, so check or send us send us something on that end. So uh until next time, send us out, Brody. Yeah, you know, all right, folks.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

That's it for this edition of the pickup meeting. We hope your own meetings, formal or pickup style, are as meaningful and as fun as this one. Until next time, let's do good and be nice, gang.