Ep. 14 - Kerry Kincanon, Oregon State University

🎙️ New Year, Same Pickup Meeting Energy (But Less “Circle Back”)

In the first Pickup Meeting of 2026, Brody and Kevin kick off the year with a conversation that spirals into resolutions, leadership, and why grocery stores might be the ultimate metaphor for exploratory advising.

They're joined by Kerry Kincanon from Oregon State University, a nationally respected voice in exploratory advising, student success, and developmental advising. Kerry brings deep insight on helping students navigate uncertainty, building advising communities, leading institutional change, and why exploration belongs to every student, not just the undecided ones.

It’s exactly the kind of Pickup Meeting you want to start 2026 with.

*The Pickup Meeting is a spinoff of the Adventures in Advising podcast!

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Transcript

Kevin Thomas  
And away we go. Welcome to the first episode of The Pickup Meeting in 2026 Happy New Year, everyone. We hope so, right? Like, let's be completely transparent and honest with our audience. We're recording the first episode of 2026 in December, so you know, if a pandemic comes now, or anything you know happens, we at least made it with our podcast of 2026 and you can't blame us. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
It's not our fault if we don't get to 2026 Come on, right? 

Kevin Thomas  
We didn't do anything to keep you from getting here. Are you excited today? We're back in recording.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
We're back in recording. It has been a couple of weeks. It feels like and that's kind of a weird feeling, right? We might be rusty, maybe not.

Kevin Thomas  
But yeah, I think it's one of these things that's fun. And I was thinking about the time delay on all of this is like, we're doing January episodes in December, and what happens if there's some serious things that occur? And so it's like, what do we want to talk about? What do we not want to talk about? People will be listening to it. They don't want to hear any more about Christmas, right? We could have done top 10 Christmas songs. There's some things we really could have done, but it's it's not where we're going. So we're gonna at least start off today with things we're glad to never see again after 2025 so as we're going into 2026 here's some things let's never have again.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes, or hear we could see them or hear them that that's true too.

Kevin Thomas  
Right. Do you have any that stand out to you?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I don't know. How about we've always done it this way?

Kevin Thomas  
If that one could go away, that would be great, because that is just the phrase that says we don't like change, and we think your way is stupid.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, do you Yes, I guess that's true, right? There's too much of that going on right now because the whole world is changing.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, I think there's a lot of this and so yeah, I would love if we never heard we've always done this way. I would also like to never hear do more with less. Yeah, that just says we're not going to fund you where you should be at. So keep sucking it up and doing as much as humanly possible.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes, now, Kevin, I was, I have an electronic signature now on some of the Adobe stuff, but those campus forms that require you to print, sign, scan and email back like I could do without that in 2026.

Kevin Thomas  
You know the pandemic here at UCA was when we moved to DocuSign, and now, whenever we have things that require me to print something out, sign it, scan it and send it back, I feel like I'm in the 1800s Yes, that is true. I'm glad that we went away from that, but it's a lot. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
The one thing that's frustrating for me is that sometimes that's the way it works, and then other times, for no apparent reason, it doesn't work that way. The other thing really frustrating.

Kevin Thomas  
It is really frustrating. The other thing I would add to this list is, and people have been saying this for a while, and I think I'm guilty of it, so I'm going to put it on my never again in 2026 this is the new normal. Oh, December to January. It's not a big change, I you know, but like, the new normal has to go away.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Or we or or we'll fix it. Next cycle. The next cycle is 2026, let's fix it.

Kevin Thomas  
Yes, it's got to stop, like all of these things language wise and emails, gosh dang. Like, if I don't hear circle back or deep dive one more time, I will be better off in 2026 Yeah, yeah. We don't need to circle back to this ever again, right? Or I don't need to know if you're doing a deep dive. And honestly, I think most people that's like they Googled something or they put it into ChatGPT.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, deep dive means something different for every single person, that's for sure, right?

Kevin Thomas  
It does mean something different for every single person. So let's move Go ahead. Yeah, that's what I was going to say, let's move ahead. Yeah, you those things that we're excited about. Do you have resolutions? Are you a resolution person?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I don't know that I am a resolution person like resol. So I did a deep dive, and I'm going to circle back to this later. Kevin, Oh, Sweet Jesus. I. On New Year's resolutions, like, whether they're effective or, you know, I talk about happiness and meaning making a lot of times it talks about living in the present and, you know, doing specific things. But I didn't realize this. Did you know there's a quitters day, like, so forget about resolution. So, like, resolutions tend to fail. It takes about three weeks, right? We don't do them, right? January 19 is national quitters day because it's about three weeks after New Year's okay.

Kevin Thomas  
Did you even know that that existed? No, no. One of the things that I used to do, I used to run these events at Western Kentucky University called the campus advising network and and we would, I would start off every one of these sessions by celebrating these unique holidays that occurred. And the truth of this, this all came about because somebody was mad that they didn't get to host the session in thanksgiving, because it's easier to do in that time frame, because you can theme it. And I was like, well, the day I'm suggesting for you is national pirate day. And so which is like September 19 or something. So then, like, all the jokes I was doing were pirate related, R movies, you know, things of that nature. And so I knew there's a day for everything. But I did not know about national quitters day. It makes sense, where will you be and what will you be quitting on January 19? I guess that's the big that's the big question. So, I mean, look, I think the new year is always a good time to kind of rethink priorities and what you're doing. You know, I set a theme every year, and I think themes are better than maybe specific actions like so, you know, I continue to want to make better camp Campus Connections. Be a network builder on is use campus. I'm still relatively new here, and so that's been kind of a focus in my year, and I think I'm going to continue with that. I'm a runner. I need to remember that, right? And so kind of recommitting to a healthier lifestyle. And then I was thinking about this, and our guests coming up may have some ideas here, but I am really good at buying records, and some days I'm not as good about enjoying the records that I buy, and so I need to maybe recommit to that personally. How about you? What do you got going on? Yeah, I don't think that I'm a good resolution person. I think I would like to be. But, you know, I think on the personal side of things, you know, I go to counseling, I think mental health is a really important thing, and so I'd say one of my goals for this year is to be a good steward of my mental health and balance those things out. I think that's really important. Fantastic. I think I would like to drink more water this year than I did last year. You know, maybe that's a good goal, yeah, to have just be a little healthier, obviously, continue my my 10,000 steps a day trend. And I think those things are healthy and have good, healthy relationships with my wife and family and friends. I you know, I think those are good goals, anytime you can refocus things. Yeah, but I think that as I looked at things and really thinking about this topic from a professional standpoint for higher education, I think that I looked at it in two leadership ways, right, leading with curiosity, not assumptions. Oh, that's fantastic. And I really I'm hitting this right now and that I've been doing this job for six, seven years in this particular role, and now I feel like I've got it figured out and that's fine, but I think that curiosity really matters in being a good steward and a good partner with my team, and not just assuming the intention and asking questions and being curious and learning more. And then the other thing is doing something that allows for there to be more space for joy, not just productivity. I think in higher education, we do a pretty terrible job of celebrating and being in the moment and being in that place, because we're always ready for the next thing. And so I'm going to at least set a little professional goal to celebrate joy, celebrate the good, and not just always the productivity that comes from things. And I think that's a mindset or an environment thing too, right? Like, to me, happy, happy folks are more productive, right? So I think if you start to think about celebrating small wins and and thinking about the accomplishments in ways that really celebrate people that you get more productivity too, like it's chicken or the egg maybe, kind of, kind of thinking. But I love that you're thinking about that. That's great. I'm going to take that too. I'm just going to steal it and use it for my own How about that? You're just stealing my stuff. Is what I hear. That's what, that's what I'm going to do. All right? I like it. Listen, let's. Theme thing. I, you know, we, I don't remember which one of us started the theme thing, but I think we've stolen that from each other professionally, on on something. So yes, we might as well just continue with resolutions of all sorts. Oh, and here's a resolution. You know, we were talking about this here recently, you and I go into a ball game. I think you and I need another, another trip this year, outside of the pickup meeting to like, go watch the Vikings and dolphins play in Minneapolis in the fall, because that happens this year. Just it does. It does happen. Oh, my God, that has to happen. It does so we have to figure that out. So resolution wise, I think, figure out a way for you and I to connect outside of the virtual environment, and the NACADA environment is a good goal and resolution for the year.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
It's a great segue to our guest because we talked about this before we brought him on right but Kerry Kincanon and I, we have committed to going to shows when we're at the annual conference together, music shows, rock shows, rock concerts, and we've had a blast doing that, so let's bring our guests on. Why don't we do that? Yeah, welcome to Kerry Kincanon, so you know, it's an absolute treat to have you on, Kerry. You know, we're joined by someone today who's shaped the exploratory advising concept on a national scale. He's been a fixture of student success and advising at Oregon State University. It's Kerry Kincanon. We're glad to have you on the show, Kerry, welcome.

Kerry Kincanon  
Thanks, guys. I'm so excited to be here and hang out with you in your podcast and really do some deep dive today. Get into it. You know? Yeah, it's good to see you both.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I mean if we have a good enough conversation, maybe we can circle back.

Kevin Thomas  
Hi, Kevin. Just like combining these forces to make 2026 start off this way for us. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I could send you a form that maybe you could DOCUSign like some kind of NDA after today's episode. That's right,

Kerry Kincanon  
We might need that for sure.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So Kerry's our director of the University Store Exploratory Studies program in Oregon State, where he leads that unit, and he's been known for championing developmental advising, elevating undecided, exploratory students, and building collaborative student centered systems. Wanted to finish that introduction. You're active member in NACADA, and just an all around great dude.

Kerry Kincanon  
I appreciate that introduction. Most of that's true, I think, yeah for sure.

Kevin Thomas  
And also, you know, for our audio audience, I decided to grow out my hair so that this particular episode wouldn't just be three bald white guys.

Kerry Kincanon  
You know, I was thinking about that coming into this conversation that that was, you know what? What the public wants, I'm sure, right, guys talking, but yeah, here's to my follically challenged friends.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I mean, Kerry, here's what I would say. I think that's a great band name, three bold white guys.

Kerry Kincanon  
Oh sure, yeah. Lots of people want to see that, no doubt.

Kevin Thomas  
Or my follically challenged friends.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
They might be giant song.

Kerry Kincanon  
Yeah, I gotta say, Kevin, I mean, I think you're less follically challenged than than maybe me and Brody. It's looking good.

Kevin Thomas  
Listen, if I can win a hair competition in any room at all, still, I will take it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Both of your beard games are pretty solid today. Let's be completely honest.

Kerry Kincanon  
Yeah, you gotta work with what you got left. That's what I always say, right?

Kevin Thomas  
That's right. That's right.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So why don't we start asking you some questions here? Kerry, you know, we'll get into the work stuff first, and then we'll have some fun. But you know, you've been a central figure in OSU exploratory advising community for a long time. When you look back at your early years with the UESP what moments stand out as foundational for you?

Kerry Kincanon  
Yeah, I really, you know, when I think about the journey that I've been on, I started with this position as a graduate assistant, as a graduate student, and I don't know that I could have been any luckier to have come into, you know, I was definitely looking to get into advising, no doubt about that, but to come into a situation where I was working with a population that I think fed into my natural sort of interest in a lot of things, and short attention span. You know that every student who was coming through the door had a different story. So I was really drawn to that, and drawn to the idea of engaging with them, on finding what's going to be a good match and a good fit for them. And so, you know, having those experiences out of the gate, and. And being able to have some, you know, those meaningful conversations on the front end, really, I think, has defined my career in terms of, you know, knowing that a lot of my bread and butter is working with students in transition, right? And working with students who are coming into the university and trying to find their place. And also, you know, working with students, who are they? Maybe they, they start in a place realize there's dissonance there, right? There's a disconnect between their their interest and values and the thing that they're trying to study, and they need some good company to help navigate that. And so, you know, really being, being that kind of person to students has been pretty meaningful to me. And you know, I think about many, many interactions that I've had with students over the years where we've gotten from one place to another and from a place that wasn't so good to maybe a place that's better for them. Gosh, I love that.

Kevin Thomas  
It's such a great thing to be a part of that journey and to have a little bit of influence and responsibility in the work that you do. And I can't help but think about this that I recently had a Starbucks conversation with my admissions counselor team, and they're new, and they're learning a lot of things, but they're in this role where they're engaging with high school students. And one of the things that one of the admissions counselors said was, I'm really struggling with the fact that students don't know what they want to do at this point. And my son was coming to pick me up because I didn't have the car that day, and I said, when he comes in, he's 16 years old, he's a junior in high school, ask him, ask him if he knows he what he wants to do. And and, you know, you think I work in higher education, I've got all these things figured out. Not first generation, there's layers. And my son comes and he's like, can I get eliminated? And I was like, Yeah, but before you do, Dee has a question for you. And he's like, Oh, well, what do you want to do in college? And he's like, I don't know. No clue. You know. And then he went and got his lemonade. It's those conversations that I think people forget have to happen for college students that are so paramount, and in the fact that that is meaningful for you, like, I just, I'm so appreciative of the work that you do you got year after year. And like, how do you keep that engine going? How do you keep that in your work occurring, that you find that success?

Kerry Kincanon  
Yeah, what's better than observing discovery, right? I mean, isn't that? Isn't that great, you know, to see someone in that process of definition and uncovering and finding something new, I I think you know to that situation, Kevin, which I'm really, you know, excited that you sort of put your son into that situation with your team, but I think that was illuminating to show. How do you expect some one to know? I mean, truthfully, interest comes with experience, right? And so you know you may be in a situation where you're working with probably an exception, which is a student who knows out of the gate early on and has experiences that help them define that they want to major in a specific area, pursue a specific career, but the overwhelming majority don't know that. You know, I know from my years and working with exploring students, how many of them found a major that they didn't even know existed until they got into the institution and they got exposure to things that they had never had exposure to before, you know? And that's the, I think that's the promise of an institution, right? Is that it's gonna you've got all these different disciplines, and you've got this this, especially like at Oregon State. I mean, we're a land grant public research university. We've got 200 plus majors and options. When you really look at all the things that are, when you put it all on paper, and gosh, there's a lot of lot of potential in that for someone to find something that they didn't know was there before,

Kevin Thomas  
All of us said, all of us majored in higher education, right? That's how we all got here today. I mean, but that's it's well conversations we have all the time. And I say it to first year students, I say to their parents, before they're coming in, listen, six months ago, your students were sitting in a classroom or doing something in life that required them to raise their hand to go to the bathroom. Yes. How should we ever expect them to have a full understanding of what they want to do for the rest of their life and beyond that? How terrifying is that question and we forget those things.

Kerry Kincanon  
Yeah, you know, I think I'm always impressed if students come in to OSU, and particularly traditional age students, to where they've they've been in positions where they've been able to do job shadows or informational interview. I mean, some some high schools are really good about that kind of thing. Are really, you know, efforting to try to get that kind of engagement partnership. But there's, there's a lot of have nots out there who don't have exposure to that kind of thing. And I think that is one of the things that's kind of incumbent upon institutions, universities, to talk about that as an exploratory activity, and the value of getting lots of voices in the conversation to help you get the information you need to make an informed decision.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, the one thing I always get a little nervous about. So first and foremost, Kevin, that's my joke. He stole my joke about the bathroom. I can't believe it. But secondly, right? Like I get nervous that as higher education has evolved, because Kerry, I got my chops working with undecided and exploratory students in the late 90s and and to me, and I started as an undecided, exploratory student. To me, I think we kind of forget that every student really does need to explore, and that higher education is a place where that can happen even even if the student really thinks they know what they want to do, exploration, curiosity, right? Kevin kind of talked about that as one of his New Year's resolution goals. Like, that's an important part of any undergraduate experience. And I think about both of my kids who started at the institution where I used to work undecided, and both of them, through exploration, were able to kind of find their footing, right? One kind of went from a skill perspective. You know, I didn't really advise my oldest daughter to major in anything, but I told her, you know, you're really good at art, and it would be terrible for you not to take an art course at some point in time, and then you take an art course. She takes an art course, and she's like, Oh, I gotta do more of this, right? And it's not automatically connected to a career, but all of a sudden it's building confidence, right? Early Success builds confidence and and my youngest took a different tack, right? She took a great course in global economics with a fantastic faculty member, and was really kind of interested in the business angle, but also loved the behavior piece, and ended up in economics because it was such a great connection the social sciences with the business piece and without that exploration, students Don't get there. 

Kerry Kincanon  
I think that's a good observation, and obviously situated in some very personal, local experiences with you, Brody. I I think about something that we did at Oregon State, you know, decade plus now, but you both have been with NACADA long enough you've known about the phenomenon of advising syllabi, or advising, you know, advising syllabus, and, you know, as part of our process to wrangle the way that academic advising worked for undergraduates on this campus, and particularly first year students, we developed First Year Advising syllabus. And one of the, you know, we tried to essentialize, sort of the cornerstone things that we want students to learn in their first year. And one of the things that I was super happy that we put in there was we centered exploration, and we didn't, we didn't frame it as you you should be. You should all be exploratory students, because there are definitely, especially at Oregon State, where we're we're pretty stem focused here, really big School, College of Engineering and agricultural sciences and forestry and things like that that are happening here. Got a lot of students who come here for that, and so it's not to say that you necessarily have to start it in exploratory studies, but you should be exploring. You should be thinking critically about what you're liking, what you're not liking as you're having the experiences, because that helps you refine your choice. I love what our College of Engineering at Oregon State has done, which is essentially the first year students can be any engineering major. They can then go into it and choose mechanical or electrical or civil or what have you, but the design of the curriculum in the first year really accommodates change. It really accommodates giving them exposure to all the engineering disciplines and the, you know, a lot of those students will find that, hey, something over there fits better for me than the thing that I'm starting as. And I think that's good. That's part of the part of the refinement that happens with exploration.

Kevin Thomas  
I think one of the things that you hear often with the undeclared exploratory population, and part of your answer you just had, gives some insight to this. But they worry about connection and belonging with the institution. What are ways that you feel institutions do that really well in ensuring that that connection and that belongingness occurs, because a lot of folks will go well if they're not my college, they're kind of out there on their own, and I don't necessarily always buy into that, because the university is bigger than that college to begin with. What are things that you've seen that have made that. A real successful situation.

Kerry Kincanon  
Yeah, well, from where we were when I started at Oregon State, which feels like the dark ages now, but I think it was the 90s man. That's a long time ago to to now, I've definitely seen our academic colleges be, in general, a lot more accommodating to exploring students. So, you know, we've got some high volume colleges, and what I mean by that is large number of students, right? Our College of Engineering, our College of Business, and they've got a set of introductory courses, both of those colleges that run through the course of the first year. And you know, for again, traditional first time first year students, or even students coming in who don't have prior college experience, they're, they've been super generous about giving exploring students access to that, those opportunities. And so as one of those exploratory strategies, taking classes in the discipline. I think that the fact that they are allowing students to get their foot on the ground and being a part of that community and that setting is is really wonderful. I've cultivated relationships with those colleges so that they think of us now when they got something good going on. Like, if they've got an event that is going to be informative or helpful about the culture of their particular college, I mean, we're pretty good at looking for that stuff in my shop, but they're also pretty good at letting me know I myself, am on a lot of our college's student list serves. So like, I'll get messages from our College of Education or our College of Earth, Ocean Atmospheric Science that they are sending to students about some happening, something that's going on. And so we've taken to curating our own exploration this week website where we put in, put in, here's this event. And here's why you should go, if you're thinking about X, Y or Z, you know, it's, it's simple and practical, yeah. And, you know, it's a choose your own adventure as a student, right? You know, if you are able to engage with that, we hope that you do we we talk about exploration in terms of to do list different things work for different students. What do you what are you trying? What? What's helping you learn more about that particular area? You know, Kevin, to your point, and I've seen some folks across the country do this, where they get their exploratory programs will get more into a meta, major kind of setting, you know, where they'll have thematic tracks that their students were will follow. I mean, we're not to scale. I mean, we're a large research university, but I think we know we can largely sort of impose those thematic ideas on our individual engagement with students. But some schools will just embed that. They'll say, Well, you're on a social science track, or you're all, you're on a stem track or what have you, and I think that's that's another way to try to build some thematic community around a student's journey.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's fantastic. You know, Kerry, I know your institution's done some big change, right? Big advising change stuff. Can you maybe speak about how leading that kind of change from your vantage point, as especially as expectations for advising continues to grow, what, what, what you've accomplished at Oregon State?

Kerry Kincanon  
Yeah, absolutely. So we, you know, I like our culture in the sense that I we, we do try to put things under the microscope and look at how we're going about our business and how we can do things better. You know, I know you've both been at a variety of institutions, and you know, one of the hallmarks of a of a larger research university, in particular land grant, is that the colleges have their own identity, and it can lead to some decentralization and sort of potential silos. And so we've worked to bridge across that with our advising community. You know, we have, we have a University Advising leadership team that's made up of directors of advising from across the colleges. In fact, we're going, we have a retreat tomorrow that we're all going to be on. And so, you know, we're in community with each other, you know, but we we also, what we did is, a few years ago, we engaged in a pretty comprehensive review of academic advising, and we're kind of looking at concerns about consistency to the students experience, and how we can improve that, Knowing that, you know, we have a lot of migration, like a lot of lot of colleges and universities do, where students change their mind about their pathway and leave one college to go to another. And so we're thinking about, well, how do we help them on that that journey and that transition? So we did this advising review, and we did an internal examination. We had consultants from NACADA come in and do an external review with us and sit down and make some recommendations to us. One of the things that we've never had at Oregon State is sort of executive level leadership of academic advising. We've always had some AVP or someone who had sort of oversight, but they it wasn't their main job, and the one of the offshoots of this review, as we implemented some of the recommendations, was to create that position. And so as of November of last year, we have Dr. Carla who's now my boss, as our Executive Director of Academic Advising. And as part of that transition, I also took on some different responsibilities. I still have oversight over university exploratory studies, but my title is director of new student advising. And as director of new student advising, what one of the things that I've taken on is thinking about that critical first year and that onboarding experience from the time that a student deposits to the end of their first academic year, and the role that advising plays in that. So I'm working very closely with our director of new student onboarding, thinking about, you know how we help students orient to the university and navigate that continued onboarding through their first year, and particularly how we think about advising as it fits into that so the infrastructure that we embedded here at Oregon State is each of the colleges has A Director of Advising who has a dotted line reporting to Carla, and each of the colleges has a lead, someone who's responsible for sort of shepherding New Student Advising in their college, and they have a dotted line reporting to me. And so we were building community around that concept of new student transition for first time, first years and new transfers to to OSU, to help again with the consistency piece, but also to make sure that we're covering the bases that we want to cover with with those students as they come into this place. 

Kevin Thomas  
The thing that stands out to me, and that and several of your answers have hit on this today, Kerry, is really three phrases stand out that institutions don't always do, which is an investment in the people, right? We, I, we hear this all the time that you know, advising offices and areas have so much turnover, and so then leadership is new, sometimes, not having been in an institution for a long time, and that's not necessarily the case at all institutions, but that investment in people and what you're doing and why, the importance of advising matters, the intentionality of what you're talking about, you know, the work that you all have done at Oregon State, people have looked at for quite some time and said, Yeah, there's some good in this, but even in that, you were intentional in saying, what more can we do, and how can we do that better? And then commitment that it is a commitment in student success, a commitment in doing things different. And those things are really powerful when you're applying those to students. And I don't know that there are a ton of institutions that are practicing that as much as they're preaching it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And Kevin, there's a fourth one, and that's community right, developing the community that exists, right? Putting people together in the same room, sharing successes, to kind of create that consistency, you have to bring people together as a community to kind of make that happen too, and it seems as if that's been an intentional component of the changes that you've made.

Kerry Kincanon  
Yeah, we've had a lot of overhaul, let's say at OSU the last certainly in the last year. I mean, we have a new gen ed. So we've got, we're kind of working with two Gen Eds right now, depending on where a student is in their in their process, we did an overhaul of the new student onboarding to try to think about it not just as a like orientation, right, but think about it as sort of the arc of a student's experience, from deposit to the end of their first year. And then we, you know, we did this overhaul, I guess, to a degree in advising, in terms of imposing a different structure on it all, with the idea of, again, enhancing the student experience, creating more consistency. But also Brody, the community piece is big. I mean, we've, we've tried to attend to that to Oregon State over the years, for sure, we, you know, we have kind of a grassroots advisor Coffee Talk program that a lot of our newer in position advisors will run to try to help them get the information they need to do their work. And I have been happy so far. I mean, we've got a ways to go, but with the community. We're developing around this new student advising principles. I've got the dotted line. Folks who are in the conversation with me are great. It's been wonderful to sort of be working with them. And they're, you know, they're nothing if not honest. They're talking about the fits and starts of, you know, dealing with new models across the board, dealing with new gen ed and all that. And so we're there's at least maybe more public airing of grievance, you know, in the sense of that, that we were talking about this stuff, and we're trying to get to the heart of that right away. 

Kevin Thomas  
You mentioned new people in positions, new supervisor, new structure, all those things. I'm just curious, and when you think about your own development, who have been some of your most influential mentors, inside or outside of higher ed that really have grown you to be the professional you are today? Yeah?

Kerry Kincanon  
Wow, we got a couple days for this, right? Yeah, you know, you know, I think about the person who you know brought me into the GTA position, who Brody knows he ended up taking her position at USI, Stephanie Hamton, before you and Stephanie was, Stephanie. Was the one who hired me, and she was sort of the first, at that time that was called the coordinator of university Exploratory Studies here, and really did a lot to set the foundation. And, you know, one of the things that I learned from Stephanie is attend attention to detail. I remember being in that first year. And I, you know, this was back in the day of paper files, and I, you know, Stephanie would review my files and go through and write notes, and I'm like, Man, I'm just screwing up left and right. But, you know, truthfully, that's part of the process. It was really cool to have someone paying attention to the work, because when you're working with exploratory students, you got to know a lot you do, and you know you're you've got to be attentive to the scope of things across the institution. So it was, in the scheme of things, it was super helpful for me to have someone like that looking out for me early on, so really appreciative of Stephanie and really appreciative over the years I've had, even though now it took a little while to get into this situation where we are structurally under University Advising. I've had a lot of sort of directors and abps that I've reported to over the years who have been really good about, you know, letting me, let me follow my bliss in a way. You know, being involved with Nakata, right? I got involved early on, about a decade ago, where I got to be on the faculty senate committee in charge of Gen Ed, and ended up I was the first advisor ever on that committee, and then actually ended up being a co chair of that committee for a couple of years. And it was cool that the advisor who followed me in that position is now our director of Gen Ed here at OSU. So, you know, I think it was cool for for that faculty senate committee to see how much advisors know and help students make meaning of Gen Ed experiences. And so I had a boss who let me do that. That was, you know, Moira Dempsey was her name, and she was phenomenal. And so I think about those folks, and then I think about the people that I've learned from in Nakata over the years. You know, a lot of folks in the exploratory community, whether that's Kathleen Shea Smith or David Spight or, you know, even artist posito has been a good sounding board for things over the years, yeah, and, and then also Brody, you know, Brody and I and Kevin, for your were lucky enough to be in the board of directors, right? And so just hearing those different voices of expertise, you know, our colleague who came in with us on the board, Brody, Karen archan beau, I mean, I, you know, how much have I gleaned from just listening to Karen and hearing her wisdom over the years? It's, it's, yeah, pretty, pretty phenomenal to have all those, all those friends, but also kind of collateral mentors throughout the process.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I think about that a lot. Just the community is strong in advising. There's no question about that, and there's, there's nothing like a supervisor who's going to let you spread your wings. I mean, I have felt pretty lucky in my career, too, to kind of have that support right to go out and try new things, or to get involved in stuff that was really important to me and and have that not be a burden, right, like it was really encouraged and nurtured. And I think it makes all the difference when we talk about supervision and working with folks and helping get the most. Out of people, right, while keeping them happy, right, and celebrating, kind of the work itself. And so I love that response, Kerry, right? I love that you have people, but the community itself, I think, has been tremendously supportive to you. It sounds like and that's wonderful. We've asked this question of almost every person that we've had on, and I want to kind of get your take, but obviously data is kind of driving a lot of our decisions these days. And how has it guided your team's work while still centering on kind of some of the relationships and the curiosity and the human complexity that comes with working with undecided and exploratory students.

Kerry Kincanon  
What a what a timely question, you know. So we have a new provost at Oregon State, and this is one of those situations where you're, you're happy it's happening, but it's also like maybe adding some things to the plate. So our provost, our new provost, is super, super interested in in persistence, right? And particularly thinking about that critical first year. So it dovetails really well with the infrastructure that we built for advising here, and also the things that we're doing with new student onboarding. And, you know, looking across the data, he's particularly has a keen eye on exploratory students. And you know, one of the things that they're being attentive to is the persistence of that population. And so we're, you know, we're engaging. We have done this. We've always tried to engage with our population around nudges and, you know, invitation to come in and using whatever systems we have available to us to figure out where students are. Are they getting hung up in the process because of holds? Are they not engaging? You know, what's going on there, and trying to through, in some sense, the relational aspects of advising, you know, being that partner to them, paying attention to where, what's happening here. You're not You're not You're not engaging, you're not registered for next term. And so that's been on the mind of this Provost, and they've implemented some really sort of cross campus, like it's called fire first year, retention and registration, paying attention to that group. Where are they? Why are they not registered? And I you guys know with exploring students, there's a lot of variables there. There's a lot of reasons why they might not be progressing or registering. And so I think, from my group, what we're trying to do is make sure we have a good sense of the story for each student, you know. So we're doing we're working the list right now. We're going through and figure out who's not registered and trying to understand why you know what's going on there. Is it a fact where they've made the decision that they're going to transfer? Is it a fact that they've they're navigating an account balance hold, or something that they are working to resolve? And is it a fact that they've sort of fallen off the radar? How do we we get them back on? I mean, that's, that's what we're we're doing now in in a very sort of attentive kind of way. We are in our finals week this term, and so we're really working that as we, as we go forward.

Kevin Thomas  
In the setting that you are in now, you sit in a role where, whether informally or formally, you're mentoring people around you, you're impacting the way that they function, the way that they lead, the way that they grow. I mean, I think about it from our interactions. Every time I interact with you. I'm like, Gosh, I wish I had the depth of thinking that Kerry puts into everything he does like, there's a depth that you have that is admirable, that I won't ever get to but I sure strive to be better than I am at it. And so I'm wondering, like, What lessons do you hope that the people that are around you carry forward that comes from you, that comes from Kerry as a leader.

Kerry Kincanon  
Yeah, wow. What? I appreciate that compliment, and I'm super flattered and humbled by it. I i hope you know I really try to, I take a lead by example and also in someone who's, you know, going to have my my hands in the soil, as it were, in terms of working with my my folks and and, you know, I think that's part of why I've sort of stayed positionally where I am, in a sense, because I still get a chance to work with students. But I also get to think about this stuff critically, and think about things from Student Success lens that that is is hopefully putting our students in the best possible position for them. You know, we we talk about this in exploratory studies all the time, about. About there are situations that maybe aren't necessarily a win for the university, but are a win for the student. You know how many I've worked with exploring students over the years who, through their process, decided that really what they wanted was more of an applied technical degree, that that was a better fit for them, and so helping them move forward into that is good, and I think for us modeling that behavior, both for the advisors who are working with those students and accepting that, even though there may be closing the door, per se, on Oregon State University, that they're not closing the door on their own development and their own learning, that's that's a win, right? And also for the administrators above, who are really kind of paying close attention to those that numbers game. I mean, I get it, you know, I understand why you want to be concerned with students sticking around. I mean, it's a lot cheaper. That's not, I don't even like that term, maybe, but it's a lot more cost effective to retain a student than to recruit a student and to take their place, and so to the degree that we can ride the line between those things, that's what I'm hoping on my model for both the folks who report directly to me and also the folks who have that dotted line and are in community with me around this new student advising experience.

Kevin Thomas  
Very cool. Thank you.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, God, I can listen to you forever, Kerry, but let's, let's, let's talk about something where maybe I can contribute, and that's music. Let's start. Let's, let's start having some fun, right? Like you are, I am a massive music fan. Kevin Thomas would agree to that, and he's kind of the odd man out here, in the sense that he said he would have trouble keeping up with the both, both of us. But, I mean, I think I'm a huge fan. You're the biggest music fan I've ever known.

Kerry Kincanon  
Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't know what to say to it, other than Yes, hard Yes. That's, that's where I invest a lot of my energy and my time, for sure.

Kevin Thomas  
And here's where I struggle, right? I have been to as many concerts in my life as you two have been together. You probably less. So I like music. I do, but once you start to get into some of the bands you like, I'm gonna hit mute, and then we can just go on.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So Kerry, what genres or artists are dominating your shelves or dominating your time today? Like, let's just talk 2025 what's been really good for you this this year?

Kerry Kincanon  
Yeah, where I find myself, interestingly enough, as a as an English major, and someone who loves story and loves words, I find myself really gravitating towards a lot more instrumental music, and whether that's in the form of sort of contemporary or alternative jazz, or whether that's in the form of, like ambient music, soundtracks, things like that, are tending to sort of feel really good to me right now. And so, yeah, I think that's a lot of maybe what's novel there over the last few years is, is, is, you know, going towards that? But I'm all over the map. Man, I got, you know, pick a day, and I'm probably listening to something unique that day, for sure.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's great. Do you have a favorite all time show that you've attended Kerry. I mean, how many shows do you think you've seen?

Kerry Kincanon  
How old am I? Yeah, well, you know, I pretty much started going to shows when I was 15, and I'm much older than that now, right? I'm closer in age to Brody 53 and so, you know, I'm easily hitting probably 2, 3, 4, a month, depending on, depending on the month, right? So you can, you can do the math on that over, over the scope, particularly once I started to now, there was a period there where I was working in music stores, and so I got to go to a lot of shows for free. I was on guest list, and so that was nice. But, yeah, I a lot of my disposable income goes towards that for for sure. So Brody, I don't even I was an English major, not a math major, so I don't even know if I can go there.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So you were in a band for a little while to carry, right? So you, you, you were a musician. How has being a musician changed the way you think about music as a fan?

Kerry Kincanon  
Oh, wow. Um, well, I under, I have an appreciation for what musicians go through to share their art, no doubt. I mean, there's the there's an economy to it, especially if you're a touring music musician that's phenomenally complex. And you know, I you hear kind of horror stories about this these days about, like, really big, substantive artists who have to bail on on tours because of the expense, you know, because of they're just not getting the return for them, and it's costing them more money than they're making. So I think I have the. Appreciation. I think I have the appreciation of a lot of being a musician is hurry up and wait, right? You got, you got to get to a venue, you got to do sound check, and then you're waiting to go on. And there's that, that anticipation of that experience. And so I, I like that someone can learn how to effectively manage their time within that scope. It feels like, Oh, you're, you know, you're only working two hours a day or whatever, and that's just not the truth of it. I mean, you know, traveling to a venue and setting up and tearing down and all that is, is, is a lift.

Kevin Thomas  
All right, but if you're going to pick a base to play for the rest of your life. What base are you picking?

Kerry Kincanon  
Oh, my goodness, Kevin, well, I currently have my Rickenbacker, which has been with me for a long time, and I like that a lot.

Kevin Thomas  
There. All the other answers are secondary, yeah.

Kerry Kincanon  
So we can go with that, I also, you know, it's kind of my like, pie in the sky dreaming where I find these, these folks who make custom bases that are, you know, 10 grand, that kind of thing. And I'm like, I don't have that kind of disposable income to put towards this. But, you know, I drool over those all the time.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, when I worked in the record store or in a music store. Growing up in high school, the rickenbackers were always hanging on the wall, and it's like, okay, if I'm going to get out and play something and do the bass line go through, I'm practicing on those. And so I got to play a lot of rickenbackers in my life, but do not own one, and they are smooth.

Kerry Kincanon  
Yeah, yeah. They have, they have a sound. And certainly the last band, it was band I was in, that sound worked really well.

Kevin Thomas  
Very cool. So you, this is jumping out of music. You good?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Brody, yeah, I can come back to it at the end. We will ask him some one more question. But yes, that's great. Let's get out of music and go some different stuff.

Kevin Thomas  
All right, sports on TV versus live. You've got a preference, and we're interested. If you can defend this?

Kerry Kincanon  
Yeah, well, I definitely prefer watching sports on TV than going to the event live, mainly because, you know, I talked earlier about my short attention span, and I like to multitask. And you know, this fall, you guys know this, or at least Brody knows this, that I grew up in Nebraska. So I was raised, born and raised in Nebraska, football fan, and this ball I went to with my siblings, did a Nebraska Minnesota game, and it been a minute since I'd been to, you know, a game like that. I've gone to a few Oregon State games over the years, but maybe I wasn't as attentive to it. TV timeouts driving me nuts, because it was taking them forever to get back on the field. And I'm like, oh, man, I could be doing something now. I'll get up and unload the dishwasher, or I'll be, you know, doing other things. And so that's one of the reasons why I perform for it live. And I also I feel like I miss a lot of stuff live, that when you're watching on TV and you're just like, oh, I can stop that and go back and look and see, you know, I like sort of the intricacies of sport, particularly when it comes to football and baseball and things like that, where I'm like, helps to be able to rewind, and you can't do that when you're there live.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I love that you mentioned that you like listening to baseball on the radio. My, my, I got my wife into baseball by listening to baseball on the radio. She loved listening to Jack Buck and and Mike Shannon do the Cardinals broadcast. That's how I got her to love Cardinal baseball. Was actually listening. She found those guys pretty charming and fun.

Kerry Kincanon  
Yeah, well, talk about being able to multitask. I mean, you can, you know, have stuff in your headphones and walking the dogs and doing all this stuff, and get a whole good afternoon in with baseball games. But I think, you know, good baseball announcers. There's nothing like it, right? Those two that you mentioned, they're just great storytellers, you know, and and, you know, I really appreciate that. One of the things I love about Oregon State, you know, we have a pretty successful college baseball team, and our announcer, the guy who's this guy named Mike Parker, is he's like Vin Scully acolyte, you know, he's just like that. He just, he can sit and just pontificate and weave these stories. And he'll, he'll be working through literature and Bruce Coburn records, and you know, all these different things during the course of a baseball game. And you also always know what's going on in the baseball game. And that, to me, is just an art. I love that. 

Kevin Thomas  
Well, speaking of an art, it's time for the lightning round. Yeah, let's go. It blows my mind when lightning round gets here, we've hit those levels. Thanks. Matt Markin, that was...

Kerry Kincanon  
I heard that on the last last podcast, and I was just so here for it. I was waiting for it to happen.

Kevin Thomas  
It's so fantastic. Alright, so I'm going to start with favorite spot on the Oregon State campus. 

Kerry Kincanon  
I do interestingly. My office is, like, located right next to the baseball stadium. So I get the the ambient sounds of everything, practice, the sound system testing, all that kind of thing. So I like that. I also am a big fan of our union. Our Memorial Union is just a beautiful space. It's a fun building to walk through and kind of lose yourself in. Very cool.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
What are your dogs names?

Kerry Kincanon  
Current dogs are Walt. Full Name is Patton, Oswalt, Whitman and Sligo. So Sligo is named after a city in Ireland.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And would one of them, which one would win in a fight or in a race at the dog park?

Kerry Kincanon  
Well, Walt came first. And Walt was always king of the dog party Park. He was just, he was like, he was like, Norman cheers. Just, everyone was happy to see him show up, and he it was super fast. Everybody's like, how fast is that dog? He's amazing. And then Sligo came in the picture. They're both about the same size, but Sligo is a younger man. You know, he's less he's a little over a year, and he's faster than Walt now. So wow, oh my gosh. So speed demons, those two way faster than me.

Kevin Thomas  
This is jumping back into the music a little bit. What's a song that always lifts your mood?

Kerry Kincanon  
That's so hard? Kevin, there's many, many of them.

Kevin Thomas  
While you're thinking about it. Brody says, Hey, by Outcast.

Kerry Kincanon  
Yeah, there's nothing to hate about that. You know, I Brody. I think a few years ago, I shared my hype video, the caribou song. You can do it with the dogs in the video, that's such a great song. Even listening to that, I get, I get energized with it. But the video itself.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, like I, I was thinking about this, Kevin, you asked this question. Showed up. There's a band called stars that's from Canada, and they have a song called, hold on when you get love and let go when you give it. And they, they have a lyric that says, take the weakest thing in you and beat the bastards with it. And I just think it's one of the greatest lyrical kind of curiosities I've ever heard in music.

Kerry Kincanon  
Yeah, there are no shortage of perfect songs out there, for sure.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Kerry, is there something still on your bucket list that you haven't done, that you really want to do?

Kerry Kincanon  
Oh, I think it always centers around travel, right? There's, there's places that I feel like I need to and want to go. You know, New Zealand, Australia, Oceania is big. I feel like this. I'm feeling really drawn to scan Scandinavia of late. For some reason, you know, I'm learning more and more as I get older that I have no interest in heat and warm and those, those places don't look warm. So I'm like, maybe I'll go there because it's cool.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Let's see. So we asked you to send some things, and I didn't know this about you, but you you enjoy grocery shopping, Kerry. Like, is there a go to item or go to store? Like, what do you...

Kerry Kincanon  
Grocery stores are awesome. I kind of, I know it's, you know, I'm probably mythologizing a little bit, but I often think what a great retirement career just to work in a grocery store. But, you know, I'm sure there's, yeah, I'm sure it's a lot. You know, there are negatives to any place, but I love, it's my meditation. Truthfully, there's nothing better for me than either a grocery store or a farmer's market just walking aisles and considering possibilities and things like that. I love to cook, and so yeah, I that's part of my weekly ritual. I'm in it.

Kevin Thomas  
I could not love that enough. And maybe Brody what? I don't know what question you might have next, but when we started this conversation with your career, which is helping exploratory students, and you kind of end it with grocery stores and considering the possibilities, those two things aren't very far off. The work that you do with students is a career of considering possibilities and all the things that are there, right?

Kerry Kincanon  
This is a of all the sort of negative things about the internet. It is one of the really cool things about the internet is, if you've got a couple of ingredients, you can just type them in and get, you know, a lot of different possibilities, a lot of recipes. And so I find myself doing that often. I'm like, Well, I have this and this and this in the fridge. What can i What can I do with it?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Carrie, I'm sure we have a lot of music fans that listen to our podcast at least a couple.

Kevin Thomas  
Brody and his wife.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
But do you have a top three albums of 2025?

Kerry Kincanon  
Oh, man, yeah, always a tough thing. And I spend a lot of you, you talk to the folks about the fact that we're doing this in December. I spend a lot of my my December sort of thinking about that and cultivating the list. You know, I'll cite a few things that are on repeat. There's an album by an artist named oak blue, called choking up. It's, I think I don't know where she's based, but I keep coming back to that one again and again, sort of a little bit electronic, a little bit pop in there. I am a big fan of this record by SG Goodman, Kevin, if you don't know. SG Goodman, she is from your neck of the woods in Murray, Kentucky, a singer songwriter grew up in that area and has has just a phenomenal sort of record this year called planning by the signs, that is about as literate and compelling as any record I've heard in in Many years. I've got a an album, birdie that came out at the beginning of the year, called by an artist name is a jazz trumpet player named Ambrose Atkin shore. Do you know that? Love that record? Yeah, and the name of it escapes me. Now I should, should remember it, but I listened to it enough times for it to resonate. So yeah, I would cite those three among many, many, many others.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Well, Kerry, it was, thank you so much for sharing your music expertise as well as your higher ed expertise. It was such a great pleasure to have you on the show.

Kerry Kincanon  
Appreciate that so much. It was. It was really my pleasure to be here today, guys. I really enjoyed it.

Kevin Thomas  
Thanks so much, Kerry. The thing that happens, and I can't help but reflect on when you have a guest on, and especially the combination of you two together in your music, if you've ever seen the movie yesterday, which essentially the premise of this movie is the guy gets hit by a bus, and all of a sudden the Beatles don't exist, and he starts recreating the songs and becomes famous in celebrity. But there's a scene in that when he sings yesterday for the first time, and people are just blown away by it. And one of the guys says, You see, when these music guys get together, they talk about these artists that everyone should know about, that no one actually has ever heard of, and I feel like that is the environment in which I'm in when I'm with you and Kerry, it's like I'm gonna do my best to hang in there, and I'm gonna remember SG Goodman from Murray KY but beyond that, like you all are at a different level.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
it's okay. We can all be at different levels. That's what's great about music. Like, it's so subjective, what we enjoy, what we listen to. I thought we'd kind of do our top three list. Like, I mean, we asked Carrie for his top three. Like, what were your top three music kinds of ideas this this year? 

Kevin Thomas  
So this is funny, because if you are a Spotify listener, you probably participated in your year end wrapped session and and you said, Best Album of the Year. Well, for me, you know, it gets the end and it's like you listen to this many albums this year. My answer to that was one. I listened to one complete album, and it was the How To Train Your Dragon movie album this year. That's the only thing I listened to. The entire album of I found humor in this as well, when considering music. And top three things is that, when it gave you a listening age this year? Yeah, I was 57 years old. Brody, I was older than you. I was 57 years old. How old was yours? I don't I was in the 50s. I think, okay, yeah, like I and I don't know what I really thought it was going to be, but 57 caught me off guard. It said, because I am a I like music from the early 80s. I'm an old soul. I hate you Spotify. But when it came down to things, one, it said, I listened to a lot of podcasts, a lot of podcasts, and ours didn't make the top five, so I'm not listening to us that much. That's good. But my top artist of the years of the year were AJR, all fun. And we're talking about certain things. My son got me into AJR. We went to a concert together. But I really love their song, inertia, that hits with this lyric, because where I'm going is right where I am. And gosh dang, I love that lyric so much. Fantastic. John Powell, who is the composer of the How To Train Your Dragon. So I must have listened to a lot of it when the movie came out this year, and then surprising for me, number three on the list was Dave Matthews Band. I really thought it might be Prince, because I listened to quite a bit of Prince on Sundays as I'm watching Vikings games. That's an unrelated story, but Dave Matthews Band was my number three. Three. What about you? Yeah, that live.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That live. Dave Matthews, the first one from like 95 from Red Rocks. That's, that's in my car right now. I think I was listening to that this weekend. My top three. I mean, so I love Rustin Kelly, and that was the first show that Kerry and I went to see together, I think, in 2019 in Louisville, and his new album is amazing. The Beths, which are kind of a female led band from New Zealand, I believe just perfect pop. And I love their new record from this year. And then stereo lab made a great record. But the new Matt Burning record, he's the lead singer of the national is fantastic. I can't get enough of that record right now. And so those are the three I'm going to go with. I love it. I love it. This was a great episode. If you're a music fan, you loved this episode, at least if you stuck around till the end.

Kevin Thomas  
Music fan, exploring with students, talking New Year's resolution, I will say, Brody, my son does listen to the show, and he said to me afterwards, he said, every time a guest leave you pause for a second, and then Brody says, How fantastic was that? And so I think we should end today on how fantastic was that? Just amazing. Great job to you. And thank you Brody for being on the show or thank you Kerry for being on the show today. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, thanks for letting me be on the show, Kevin. I appreciate that. 

Kevin Thomas  
Listen, I voted you off over the New Year.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Hey, we hope you know any meetings that you have, whether it's formal or a pickup meeting, that they go as well as this one did today. Until next time, how about do good? Be nice Friday, for sure.