Ep. 12 - Michelle Pickett, Northern Illinois University

Brody and Kevin are back to talk hot and cold weather, holiday traditions, and the magic of Mariah Carey season! They are then joined by Dr. Michelle Pickett, Director of the Academic Advising Center at Northern Illinois University, for a warm and insightful conversation about student success, leadership, and the power of genuine human connection in advising.

Michelle shares her journey from advisor to university leader, the secrets behind building trust and belonging on a team, and why advising should never be transactional. Plus, the Christmas movie debate (yes, Die Hard counts) and who really hates Elf.

❄️ Expect laughs, heart, and higher ed wisdom served with a side of holiday spirit and why “advising is relationships” might just be the most powerful mantra in higher ed.

*The Pickup Meeting is a spinoff of the Adventures in Advising podcast!

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Transcript

Kevin Thomas  
And away we go. Welcome back to The Pickup Meeting. Another episode with your favorite cohosts, Kevin Thomas and Brody Broshears, here we are. You can feel the vibe right, like we're here. It's the end of the year. We're on that final push to get us to 2026, you can, you kind of start to feel that.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You can feel it. No doubt we got our first big cold spell. Like, I mean, Sunday was negative. It was, like, it felt like negative, but was 10 wind chill in my location, and I'm like, Ah, I'm not ready for that cold. Kevin, not ready for it. I'd much rather be 110 degree heat index than in the negative wind chills. Like, that's just me.

Kevin Thomas  
I think I'm the opposite. And I will say, having lived in Illinois, I don't miss what you're talking about. And that's not to say it doesn't get cold in Arkansas. I think when I sold my house in Illinois, I had a beautiful shovel. Man, it was great. Shovel in the snow, doing what you needed to do. Who am I kidding? Like I paid my kid to go shovel snow?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, you did. I did.

Kevin Thomas  
But, we were moving to Arkansas, I was like, I'm not bringing this. The new people can have this in the house, and then, like, within a week of moving in, it was like, snows everywhere. Every year it snows here and I have no shovel, and I'm not going to buy one either, but I will say I think I'm the opposite of you is I think I prefer the cold in general, like I don't like the frozen pipes and icy roads and all the dangerous things, but just in terms of being cold or hot, I think my preference is to be cold because I can always throw layers on. I can't take more off. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You can't do anything outside when the wind chill is like negative 20 degrees, and if it's 110 I can still do the things that I really like to do, like I can I can walk. You might be miserable, but you can still do it.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, I think I'm there was a commercial, and I can't tell, couldn't tell you what it was for, but the guy was sitting there, and, you know, he's like, man, looks brutal out there. And she's like, you're gonna go help. And he takes a sip of his coffee, and he said, I'm not going outside. Like, you know, like, that type of thing. The inside is nice. I that's my preference.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Oh, it is? Okay. Like, what's the hottest you think you've been? What's the coldest you've been? Like, I was thinking about that the other day.

Kevin Thomas  
Oh, I don't know, the hottest. I can remember being in that St Louis heat, and it gets it gets hot, and the humidity is ridiculous. And I can remember moving to Edwardsville and parking in the faculty and staff lot, and it was so hot that the rear view mirror that you look back at and your car fell off because it just essentially detached. And then I got a ticket for that, because it was so hot and my parking tag was no longer showing, right? That's next level hot. I didn't I appealed it, and I got denied. They said that I should have, you know, put a parking tag somewhere else. I don't know. But terrible. It's a terrible story. Let's talk about it more. But the coldest I don't know it's been where you know you can, like, throw water up in the air, in it kind of turns to a mist, or to a to a form of some sort, like, that is pretty cold.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I cat and I went to a Guster show a couple of years ago in Indy, and they were opening for the wood brothers, or it was like a co headlining, and Guster was first that night, and the heat index was 105 and, you know, 105 doesn't feel like that hot for maybe our West Coast list, like if you're in Arizona, I know it gets really hot, but the humidity, plus that heat index, oh, that's the that's the most miserable I've been do, trying to do something Fun, I think, in the heat and then in the cold, right? Like I've spent the first nine years of my career at the University of Northern Iowa, one of the windiest campuses in the United States. And I remember I moved there in 95 and in the winter of 96 it was the coldest winter on record, and they we went eight straight days in the real temperature never got above zero degrees. And I'm like, What have I done? What have I done? That's brutal, that's terrible. And then in between, like on the bookends of those eight days, 15 inches of snow on the front end, 13 inches of snow on the back end. I mean, I worked in a residence hall. I didn't leave that residence hall for like, a month. 

Kevin Thomas  
I will say I laughed, right? Because we were talking about topics for today, and I kind of laughed because you said, I think we should talk about hot and cold. And I'm like, Oh, lordy, right? Like, our podcast has hit the point we have nothing else to talk about.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
The weather's great. Like, who doesn't like to talk about the weather? Kevin, come on.

Kevin Thomas  
Like people that have things to do like, you know, it's like me, I want to talk to this person. So how about the weather?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Don't act like you. Don't check the weather channel app every morning to see what it's going to look like.

Kevin Thomas  
Oh, I don't do that. Is that? What happens when you get, you know, get older?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
AARRP eligible, it is.

Kevin Thomas  
I don't do that. I rely on folks at Good Morning America. They tell me all that I used to, oh, go ahead. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Yeah. So, like, let's move past the weather. Yeah, let's do it. Okay? I have this question, and I don't know the answer to it. I think I do. But what's your December personality? Like, are you somebody that gets into the mood of the season early, like, in November, or are you one of these people that hold out? Or do you decorate? Or, you know now that you're living away from the kids a little bit? Is it different? Do you travel a lot? Like, what's the December personality for Brody brochures? Well, I definitely, I definitely don't start thinking about Christmas till after Thanksgiving, because I love a great Thanksgiving meal, for sure. So I'm kind of locked in on that I know you and I differ on that we've had that conversation.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
But in terms of decorating, like my wife and I think our own worst enemies, I don't think we even put a tree up last year. But that's sacrilege, really, yeah, I mean, but we did not pull much of the Christmas stuff out. We were traveling a lot, going back and forth to Evansville. My kids make fun of me because I've never really put lights out on the outside of the house.

Kevin Thomas  
No, I will do things that like kind of accent the house. But if it's like, Hey, are you gonna put lights on your roof? And it's like, no, I don't want to die.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
No, ladders are dumb. Let's agree, especially for big dudes like us.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, ladders are fine for other people, yes, yes, okay. Like, I don't want to be on a ladder, because I think I will fall off a ladder. My good friend Matthew Forest fell off a roof. He does insurance adjusting and claims, and went to go check out the roof and fell off the roof. And that's enough for me, right? I'm done not getting onto the roof ever in my life.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, when I think of ladders, I only think of bad things. That's 100% true.

Kevin Thomas  
I would say in my household, we are early. And when I say early November one, yeah, I mean, there are two trees up at the house. It is fully decorated inside, although it may not be decorated outside. And Christmas music plane, it is going like I've heard Mariah Carey a lot. I know I'm more of a Paul McCartney fan on that standpoint of things. Give me the Paul McCartney Christmas song. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Remember they used to have those Apple like iPod cards where you could download the songs, and I have this great I have this great compilation on my iPod. I think I keep it just for the holidays, so that I can play that comp on my iPod with my speaker. It's got a lot of those songs, right? Like the Bruce Springsteen song, the YouTube song, like the Paul McCartney song, like those are all great.

Kevin Thomas  
You said the Bruce Springsteen song. And it makes me think I went to go see the Bruce Springsteen movie. And I thought, man, if they play the Bruce Springsteen song, this movie is going to be amazing. And they did not, and it was not amazing.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I'm sorry to hear that. You know, I was thinking about holiday traditions. You know, one of the things I grew up Catholic, and one of the things my mom loved to do, and we love to do this with our family, is Saint Nick's day. Like, so December 6 is kind of like this celebration of Saint Nicholas. And so it's like, they fill up the stocking. And I really get into that. Like, so I think if Catherine said, What's one thing Brody's really into? I think she would say Saint Nicholas Day is something I really enjoy, right? Like finding little trinkets, fun things, sentimental things, and putting it in the stocking on December 6. So we do like a pre kind of holiday gift exchange that's focused on that kind of fun stuff. Do you have anything like that?

Kevin Thomas  
I you know, I don't, I don't know that. We do, you know, we there's various things like, in lead up to Christmas that will do certain books we read from when Braden was a child, and movies we'll watch, and I know we're going to talk about that as we end the show, some of our favorite movies. Yes, but I don't know that there's, like, any of those, like, real standby traditions. We try to go and check out Christmas lights in the area, anything that makes the season feel good. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Snow is not fun, though. You said you would like see snow on Christmas. Like, I don't need snow ever in my life, ever again.

Kevin Thomas  
So I like the idea of snow, you know, right? Like, I like the idea of, like, Christmas morning, you wake up and there's snow everywhere, and you have nowhere to go, and you can just look out and listen to Mariah Carey belt that song one more dang time, and and just take it in. And then you're like, Alright, I'm done. It can go away now, right? Like, that's where I get to. I need the moment. I like the idea. Listen, it's similar to the car commercials that don't happen in real life, right? Where, like, they're driving the car in and on the snow, and then they're like, here, honey, you can have the car and there's snow everywhere. I like the idea, but the reality is just not going to happen. I don't need the snow to be everywhere. It's going to ruin the rest of the week, and especially in Arkansas, if you get like, a half an inch of snow, things shut down. Yeah, it's not for me.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, you mentioned the Mariah Carey Christmas song. I get really upset because I love George Michael And doesn't that isn't the George Michael song, like, this song that if it plays, you're out, like, whatever, like the last Christmas song. I think that's a great song. 

Kevin Thomas  
I think Wham is like that. That George Michael one is a top five Christmas song.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So we're on the same page, but the world's not on the same page as us.

Kevin Thomas  
Oh, you hear you hear it a lot. But I also probably fall under the rule of, I feel like there should be a metric that tells you which Christmas song is number one each year, and after it's been number one, it cannot legally be played for like five years, right? It's gonna be Christmas in five years, but let's hold off and not just abuse it the next year and play it again until the point that you hate the song.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I do like that. I do like the holiday, right? Like the break that comes with winter, for sure. I do get excited about the gift giving and getting along getting around with family, whether you get along with your family or not. Like that break for higher ed folks is really nice. Like, let's go. It is speaking of going breaks.

Kevin Thomas  
Or breaks Yeah, maybe from this conversation, yeah.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Let's stop talking and bring on our guests. Who's probably a lot more interesting than this conversation is.

Kevin Thomas  
You sure you don't want to talk about the weather some more?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
No, you shut up right now.

Michelle Pickett  
Enjoying this. This isn't this is entertaining.

Kevin Thomas  
Welcome, Michelle.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Sound effects now.

Michelle Pickett  
Wwesome. That's great.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So we're joined today by someone that I had the privilege to hire back in 2006 right? Golly, we had just launched the brand new Academic Advising Center at Northern Illinois. You've been a colleague, right? You've been a collaborator, an absolute force for student success. It's Dr. Michelle Pickett is with us today. Michelle's currently serving as the Director of the Academic Advising Center at Northern Illinois University. You just finished your doctorate to Dr. Pickett, are you excited about that?

Michelle Pickett  
Yes, because I now know what it means to watch, to watch episodes of shows on Netflix for hours on end. Look what you're doing with all your time. That's right. It's what normal people do. 

Kevin Thomas  
You got educated and now Netflix. 

Michelle Pickett  
That's right, that's right. I'm taking it all in. I'm still I'm we're coming up on my year anniversary from the time I defended. So, yes, my goal was to do nothing for a brief amount of time, which I am enjoying doing that.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And podcast with us. Like, no. Like, absolutely nothing.

Michelle Pickett  
Well, yeah, I'm just saying, like, I'm trying to be...But yeah, this is exciting. I've never it's my first time on a podcast. I've watched you guys, so I'm now on it. So thanks for inviting me.

Kevin Thomas  
That's absolutely so Michelle, I know a little bit right, just from some some brief interactions and we've connected a few times in conferences over the years, but I see that you did your research on the impact of academic advising on student satisfaction and persistence. Anytime you come to the end of a timeframe here, right in the semester, people start to get to well, how are students retaining? How are they doing? What's going on? Like, simple way, right? Like, I can't read your entire dissertation and all of your research and all the things you've done, like, what'd you learn?

Michelle Pickett  
Well, I mean, the satisfaction piece is really that advisor, student relationship, that that's key, and it's really focusing on the advisor being supportive of that student. You know, my research was on first year students, and so we talked about developmental advising versus prescriptive advising, and developmental advising definitely showed an increase in satisfaction for students, and then the persistence thing. And you know, my research was kind of done coming out of covid, so wasn't necessarily the best time for it, but the persistence piece is a little bit different, because it's talking about the student being able to perform in their courses, right? And so part of what came out from that is looking at the adjustment from the high school to college experience in the classroom, and looking at how advisors can support students having really good academic behaviors to be successful in the classroom. And so again, the time frame that I did it was during covid, but that was something that came out in terms of helping the training of advisors and thinking about that learning experience, going from the high school classroom to the college classroom, the demand on their time for their learning, because it's so structured in the K through 12 system and college is like, hey, whatever works for you. And they're like, I don't, I don't know what works for me. Yet, some of them have that behavior, but some of them don't, and so you have to help them adjust to college. And one line I stole from Terrell Strayhorn in terms of belonging from a NACADA conference was cultural navigators. Academic Advisors are absolutely cultural navigators. And I really hold true to that and believe that. And so for the academic piece of it, advisors can help students understand how to navigate this new environment that students are in.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's an all time great NACADA talk. I love that. That's that talk was the same year as Charlie's talk. Like, yeah, that's crazy. Those that Minneapolis conference, right? Like, I go back to those two presentations often, yeah, his talk was amazing. So like speaking about kind of thinking about your dissertation. You know, you started kind of as a frontline advisor, yep, and now you're providing university wide advising leadership. What parts of that journey has most shaped your philosophy about student success?

Michelle Pickett  
Well, I mean, you know, I was just talking about this a little bit earlier. My approach as an academic advisor was really to get to understand the student and what they need and to help craft a plan for their success. And part of that required me to get to know them as best I could within the timeframe that I was working with them, and so that helped me understand who the student is and how we can say, Okay, this is where we are, and help you figure out a plan. And I think that translates into my work as a advising leader, because I'm trying to figure out what is it that our students collectively need in this environment of the university, and how do we bring those resources together? Sometimes it's easy to bring those resources together, and sometimes it takes a little more work, conversations, some challenges. Have to deal with some barriers, but at the end of the day, it's still student focused. It's still looking at what is the best path for success, and then trying to figure out how to work that plan. And so that's what keeps me motivated, because I think about myself as a student. You know someone I'm like, I will hope someone is advocating for me in these big, tall buildings. And so that's what keeps me focused. And then, you know, it's funny, because sometimes you're doing the work that you do, and you just, you know, you go home, have a dinner and go to sleep. And so sometimes when you see a student, like, I saw one of my students from, oh, it had to be at least 10 years ago, and he came up and it was like, Miss Pickett I remember what you told me, and I was like, how did you find me like and but it was, they're everywhere, Michelle, they're everywhere, I know. And it was, but it was reassuring to know that my perspective at the time was valuable, because it resonated with him 10 years later, and I. Try to keep that same perspective when I'm sitting at the table with leadership or whoever, making decisions and things like that. So that's it's the same focus. It's just a different arena.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's great.

Kevin Thomas  
Absolutely, your story reminds me of you told me this wonderful thing, and like, what was it? 

Michelle Pickett  
What did I tell you again? 

Kevin Thomas  
I had the same thing presented at the administrators Institute, and the next week, I got a phone call from Ashley Thomas, and she says, Kevin, I remember that thing you said, I'd like to put it in my dissertation. I'm like, What was the thing I said?

Michelle Pickett  
I don't remember sometimes after, yep, right.

Kevin Thomas  
Tell me again. You mentioned about the, you know, doing the resources and building the team and serving as an administrator. How do you cultivate trust, belonging and a sense of shared purpose among your staff? Because I think that our audience, whether they are have a staff, or whether they are part of a team, you know, those things are real in our roles and often, some often set aside, right? Like we get the purpose of where we're going. But when you talk about trust and belonging, there's not like a guide that we just hand out to leaders to do those things.

Michelle Pickett  
No, it's not, you know, there's something that degrees and classes will teach you, and then some things life will just teach you. You know, personally, again, I try to get to know people. I don't have to know everything your favorite color and but I mean, just to understand who you are and understand some of the things that are important to you. And then that dialog and the interpersonal communication helps, I think, to build trust individually, and then what I'm learning more still now is the transparency, and for me, explaining the why I find is very important for folks to understand and build trust, because there are times when some things are the answer is just no, like, I can't there's there's things we can't do, but the understanding the why, I think, helps folks to be comfortable with that. They may not agree with it, but they may learn to be more comfortable. So I think it's just requires a certain level of authenticity that is important. And so again, when life lives, and life is life, and for a lot of people right now, trying to also look at, I'm focused, we're focusing on you as a person. So one of the things we recently talked about with our staff is like helping the helper, and thinking about, you know, what's going on. Everyone has different things happening in their lives, so how can we focus on, like, some well being related things for you, and again, to me, that's an authentic thing, because I've had my own life experiences that someone just understanding who I am at this moment was very important. And so I try to do that with my team, and then taking their feedback and asking authentically and genuinely, asking what they think, and then being able to see how we can incorporate some of those ideas into what we do. So that way, they have some additional connection and ownership in the work that we do. Because I my staff, went from four to 20 over the past, like about three years, and so that even stretched my ability or skills in leadership and supervision, because it wasn't as new territory for me. And I hope you know, I think I'm doing I'm doing okay.

Kevin Thomas  
I'm sure you are. Well, you mentioned some things that I think are interesting too. One is in and I don't know that you said it in this way, but it's like a balance of transparency, you know? And sometimes you just have to say no to something. Sometimes you're letting them know the why of something like that. Those things are there. But the thing that caught me there is we're all having life happen, right? And being transparent in that that is okay, right? That mental health matters, that your health matters, that your well being matters, that those things are critical part of your role as a leader, I just commend you for doing those things, because not all leaders do, and sometimes they hide in that space that they don't want to have that and and and I think those are really important things to talk about. So kudos to you.

Michelle Pickett  
Thank you. The guy, the guy that's your co host, also helped me learn some of that too, in my role as an advisor in the office, but also his leadership. So, you know, just being able to take from some of that, and then, you know, giving that to my staff, because, again, I have had so many things occur, and it's like, I just need you all to see me as a person, not as an employee.

Kevin Thomas  
For those folks that are not watching on YouTube right now, this is what blushing looks like for Brody cheeks have gotten a little red. The smiles gotten a little bigger. This is what's called blushing.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I appreciate, I appreciate that, Michelle. Let's talk. So, you know, we got reconnected. You know, a couple years ago, I moved to Illinois, but, you know, I've been involved in ilicata for some time, even when I was living in Indiana. And the one thing that's been kind of fun to watch, right? I was at Northern from 2004 to 2007 but that office that I helped create, right? It still existed within kind of a decentralized structure of advising. And you all have moved to more coordinated Student Success efforts at Northern, and I think you've had some success there. You know, I've read a couple of reports here recently that have come out about some of your retention success and some of your Student Success efforts. What lessons have you learned about leading that kind of institutional change? And I want to preface it by saying You said something in a session that I was in with you in the spring last year, Region Five. And I want you to maybe use that framework to kind of answer this question. But you, you talked about O Os versus PPs, and you rock the audience's world with that, and I think you need to talk about it.

Kevin Thomas  
Oh, I want, I want to know. I want to learn this one. I missed this session.

Michelle Pickett  
yeah, OOs versus PPs, and I can't take ownership of it. I heard it from someone else, but it's basically talking about organizational outcomes over personal preferences. Being able to still take in the information from your team or from different people, but also look at okay, what are the organizational priorities that we need to focus on to show success, to make movement and where we want to be. But also, you know, not just doing something for something's sake, you want to actually have a value added piece to it. So there's been a lot of different things that have occurred. If did you all notice that Brody left when I started, I didn't take it personally. I can't take it personally now, but at the time. But anyway.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
She fits in just great on the show, Kevin.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, listen, you did the whole thing where you're like, I'm gonna hire you, and then I'm out of here, good.

Michelle Pickett  
Well, here's your desk, and I'm out. Oh, but I think I've been part of discussions. But I think that, you know, looking at success of students and how things can be done better and differently, I think was an institutional conversation as it relates to retention, and so, you know, being at the table again, bringing my perspective of the student center part what may be valuable for our student population that we're working with, and then looking at how we can take all the things that can be on the menu of what we can do and focus on those priorities. I think that's important, because you could do a lot of things, but do you know that they're actually working? And maybe doing one thing well is better than doing five things average. That's great. And so I think that you know really trying to focus on those priorities is, is the goal so we can know that what we're doing is successful.

Kevin Thomas  
I'm also, you know, just thinking about your work and excellence in advising itself. And I think that, you know, we go to conferences like NACADA or state associations or whatever it is, and we get to this point where we're with people that have similar mindset, right, and similar frame of thinking. And so I'm curious what you think is the most under misunderstood part of advising work, especially from those outside of the field. And I'm hit with this quote that I frequently turn to on other things, but like, it's that whole, from the outside looking in, it's hard to understand. From the inside looking out, it's hard to explain. And one of the things that I remember doing when I first came here was, like, anybody that wants to sit in an advising appointment that we can get student permission to do, so we'd love to have you do that, deans, provost whoever, because I don't know that people have grown up understand what advising is. And so I'm curious, from your perspective, what are those misunderstandings that are there?

Michelle Pickett  
Well, one of the things I always say to people, my staff, especially this is not transactional work. This isn't Burger King. You don't pull up and say, I want XYZ, and then the next window we give you what you need. This cannot be transactional, right? Especially when you're talking about the work with our students in college now, in general, and whether it's whatever type of institution they have need. That they don't even recognize at the time, so you have to come in as the expert, at least in understanding that, and then provide them a clearer understanding of the environment that they're in. So I think a lot of times people think it's just transactional, even sometimes, when I get requests from different people, they're like, can you all just do this? And I'm like, we have a super full plate over here. That one more thing sounds like one thing to you, but it is adding on to the other 100 that we're doing. So let's think about how we can do that differently. So just basically understand that this is not transactional. I give the analogy of like when you go to your doctor's office, like your annual physical. I mean, yes, they want to know what medications you're on, and X, Y and Z, but like, Doc, could you look at me like, I know I got 15 minutes with you. Can you talk to me? And so when you have those interactions with that professional, and if you just talk about your life, they're like, well, maybe you can change this or switch that, or whatever, that's valuable information, that while it's an interaction, it can really help shift and change your perspective, your behavior or your life. And so that's where I think folks in from my perspective, don't understand what value academic advising is to a college student's experience.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, I agree, right, and I so I've been on several campuses, and I think that every college campus will say they have and do advising, but what that looks like is so drastically different. So what you're saying in that transactional standpoint of I think that's where people put most of their advising experiences. Is that in that transaction, you tell them the classes, you take the hold off, see you later, right? But it's really that relational approach is what you're talking about. And I can't help but reflect on phrasing that I've used several times where and I somewhat stolen and adjusted from the hit NBC television show The West Wing to where they said, Let Bartlet be Bartlet, right? And I this is where I go to is, let advising be advising. Like, yes, let our stuff be that. It's not let's have them sign releases. Let's not have let's have them do this thing. Let's have them do that thing. It's not transactional. You're absolutely right. And I think we should scream that from the mountaintops, that advising is relational. Advising is relationships in those relationships, absolutely Michelle, thank you.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And Michelle, I would say right that that student that you, that you interacted with from 10 years ago, that came to see you remembered what you said, but I guarantee you it wasn't take history in your third semester.

Michelle Pickett  
No, no, no. And, I mean, that's the other part of I mean, you know, my goddaughter said she wanted to be a psychologist, and I'm like, why she's like, because I'm nosy. And it was like, oh, maybe not. But I think the idea of understanding how people think and why people think is important, right? It helps you to have a unique experience. So at that point, with that student, whatever the thing was, it was what he needed at the time. I don't remember all the things he reminded me, but at that moment, that's what he needed at that at that time. And so that's the part about this. Connections to students, because they could be meandering through life or their academic life, all you know, at different points. And we're here to really be that light. And I don't want to get too philosophical, but I really do think there were some advisors in my college experience that were transactional. They also told me I wouldn't be successful now, I said, Okay, I'll be back. And I came back with my degree, or whatever, my acceptance letter. But there were some people who really like took the time, and when my dad passed, I was on the phone crying, and they let me go through that process. And so that meant something for me, all right? And so I try to embody that with the students that I see my staff. You know different things.

Kevin Thomas  
And when you're talking about this, right? Like this is why on campuses, people will be like, Well, what's your busy time? Relationships are always right? Transactions are tight. Have a timeframe. Relationships are always and I think people tend to forget that, and that's such a powerful thing.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, there's a great Chronicle article that I'll use when we do trainings with faculty or instructors about what do we want our students to remember from our interactions 20 years from now, right? And so like I think about that conversation, or the conversations that I've had with folks that that I interacted with when they were students from my time at Northern Iowa when I was just a couple years older than the students that I was interacting with to now, when I interact with staff members, maybe that I mentored along the way, and none of. At is about the transaction. It's all about the way that you made students feel, and it's really the power of the 30 minutes, right? Like sometimes, like we were doing some research on our campus here, about the number of times we see students in our space. And if you come to see your advisor at university, college at Illinois State, you usually are coming about three times in that first year, right? So that's 90 minutes, maybe a little bit longer, maybe a little bit shorter. And the question is, what are you going to do with those 90 minutes, right? And how are you going to have an impact on a student in real positive ways in those 90 minutes? Not what do I need to cover? What information needs to be shared, which has to happen? But the student's not going to remember you for any of that. They're going to remember how you remember how you made them feel.

Michelle Pickett  
And I forget who said that quote, but, you know, people may not remember what you did, but they remember how you made them feel. Yeah. And so the art of the 30 minutes or the 90 minutes is, it's like wrapping, you know, like giving your kids vegetables with cheese on it, like you can eat this. Like, I don't want any broccoli, okay, but have this. Oh, this is great. It just ain't broccoli, right? But we can still get the work done, but we can figure out how to navigate this next conversation or time frame, so that you can understand what you need to get from this experience. Because you may not come back you. I may only have the 30 minutes, but yeah, definitely looking at how you can balance the information with the relational piece.

Kevin Thomas  
Two things. It doesn't matter how much cheese you put on broccoli, that's nasty and that's just nasty, right? Like there's nothing around that the second part of this, and maybe more serious, sorry, it's just nasty, like broccoli. Jesus, I love broccoli. Listen, I love it. No, don't cook any of that stuff. That's disgusting. But the more important part is, this is a conversation that higher ed should be having as well, right? We talk about people view advising as being transactional, and it's the same conversation about higher ed in general, where people say, well, it's losing value. The degree is not losing value, it's that we're diminishing the experience, right? Like what's happening in those time frames is what should make the degree as valuable as possible. But we're hurrying through so quickly to get degrees, to get done to this credit counts for this, and this credit counts for that, and that's great, but the experience is what sets people up to be great professionals when they move out into those jobs, and we've got to do a better job at that.

Michelle Pickett  
I agree.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So you know, when I was at NIU, it was a very diverse place, right? Yeah, and I think NIU has a long tradition of kind of serving diverse student populations, whether it's first gen transfer, I believe northern is now on HSI, I think. What innovations have helped you center, help your center, maybe adapt to meet those students evolving needs?

Michelle Pickett  
I think being aware of what their needs are in general, right? You have your information piece that comes with research articles, conversations, but again, having those interaction with students, also looking to have a diverse staff that bring a wealth of perspective. I'm proud to say that we have one of the most diverse staffs are advising at NIU, and that's age, that's ethnicity, race, gender, sexuality, all the things and so to me, that helps to reflect the student population that's coming in, and so having those perspectives at the table also help to enrich our perspective. I know that I don't know everything. And so being able to bring those different perspectives in help and then also making sure that we have good connections and touch points on campus with different areas, whether it is related to our diversity centers, working with folks, with our Disability Resource Centers, working with student athletes, all the different entities, so that we can understand the diversity. But I think the commonality, though, is really understanding the person, right? I can put all the labels on you that are there, but if I'm talking with you and getting to know you, I understand some unique things about you beyond whatever the group that you're in, but I think that it helps us to have a more welcoming environment, because we have it covered in different places.

Kevin Thomas  
So I'm giving you a magic wand here, and I know that we don't have those, but for this scenario, here's your magic wand, if you could redesign one element of higher ed from scratch. This is Michelle's dream scenario, of all things. And yes, I am stretching this question to allow you appropriate time to think through an answer of a magic wand scenario. So this could be a policy, a procedure, a mindset that we take to higher ed. What would be that one element of redesigned that you would tackle first?

Michelle Pickett  
So this is something that I've been thinking about lately, and it's about higher ed, but it's also about the parents of the students. Okay, we have for we have FERPA, we have laws we can't talk about. But I find it interesting at this point in time the anxiety that parents have about college, their student college, their students, college experience and how to help them in terms of them transitioning from the demand that they've had from the K through 12 system to College, and I wouldn't necessarily have a parent orientation, but something that will help them understand how to best support your new adult, right? I listen to some talk radio type stuff, and I was listening to a doctor radio show on at Sirius XM, and there was, it was for child psychology, and two parents called in, and their children were way past child age. One lady said, my son is 30, and then another one was a father of triplets who were 20. They were in college, and he was trying to understand what they thought. The Psychologist had thought about how to help their child, and I just was sitting there thinking like, how many parents? Because, again, first gen parents are trying to trying to see how they can support their new adult through this college experience, which they're paying for, right? So that's one, one thing I would do is think about how we can have an effective parent orientation that will help them understand how to navigate this transition for this their child, from the point of admission all the way to graduation, because we don't want parents showing up at you know, senior advisors for seniors saying, what's going on. We need to foster some independence with your child. So that's one thing, and then the other thing I would say is that transition from college to graduate and going into the world something that will really help students understand the demand of that, because I think it's still a shock for them, because when you think about education, like a conveyor belt going from high school to college is pretty much it feels seamless, but when you get into the quote, unquote, real world, that is a lot different.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, I love it. I do, and I embrace that thought that the moment you start to envision and realize that parents can be partners and non inconvenience, yes, you're really looking at a holistic approach to education with the student in front of you.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And our students from this generation are reporting closer ties to parents, right? They're looking to parents and family members for that support, right? And I think we've just kind of eliminated that from our brains in many instances, when, in reality, we need to figure out, how do we embrace this in positive ways, rather than in non productive ways? No, no doubt about that.

Michelle Pickett  
Yeah, because it's also challenging to say, hey, parent, I know you've done this job for 18 years, but your child has it now. No like thinking about ways to help them in that adjust, because it's an adjustment for them too, right? If it is the first child, their last struggle in the school is still an adjustment for them, so just something that would help, that help support them?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I was thinking, we probably have time for one more work related question. I've always found, Michelle, when I was interacting with you at Northern like, I just felt like, as a collaborator, you were really strong, right? Your ability to reach out to faculty other academic departments. How have you been able to successfully do that? Like, what's in the secret sauce to creating a more seamless student experience across campus, partners on your campus.

Michelle Pickett  
Well, thank you for that. I I just try to again, but incorporating the multiple voices is important. I just need to understand what the problem is from your perspective, and then try to see how we can come up with a common goal. I think a lot of people are good at finding the problems, but they're not good at following through on getting a solution. And so you're always can find someone who's like this, this, this isn't this, okay, but how can we find at least again, one thing that's going to be successful and test. It out and be willing to try it. So I think just being open to hearing perspectives and then being able to come back with the accountability of so this is where we are. This is where we're going, I think, has been important. I found that to be really impactful and working with advisors on campus, my staff, even with some of the leadership across campus. And so that accountability piece is really important in the sense of, like, keeping us on task and making sure we're following something through, and that things don't just get lost in conversation. So I mean, and again, I I like, I like people. Sometimes, you know, have to have a little conversation in the evening with a glass of wine or the dog, but the idea of getting to understand people and their perspectives and how they think it's just been intriguing to me, to be honest with you, and so that's the part where I'm interested in understanding how you understand things.

Kevin Thomas  
See, I had this conversation with my wife the other day. I said, I really wish the dog could talk back. And now, with your wine and talking to the dog, I want to know what Michelle's dog would say back.

Michelle Pickett  
Oh my. He has some looks. Some days he's like, I don't want to hear any if it's not walk or, you know, yeah, yeah, I'm good.

Kevin Thomas  
This is a last question before we move to the lightning round. When you actually have a free weekend, what's your perfect way to recharge? It might be this wine and dog thing. Again, I don't know.

Michelle Pickett  
No, he gets at least two or three times a week. So So for me, I have to have one day of nothing, one day of even the Lord rested on one day. And so I think I deserve to do that one day of nothing, and then I'm kind of re energized to go out and do all the things I will want to spend time with someone close to me, whether it's my family or my friends. And again, that conversation is really helpful and therapeutic. And then it's football season. I do watch a lot of football, but I watch football with the volume off. Oh, I find myself being able to I was like, understand it more when they're not talking, and maybe because I talk to people all the time. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Who's your team again? Michelle, who do you root for?

Michelle Pickett  
I have about I have about five, because I need to have a backup in case people don't work out right? So

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Kevin Thomas' approach to football fan Am I like? 

Michelle Pickett  
It's got some a little college and professional. So I got the Huskies gotta. Gotta support the Huskies right now, you and then Colorado, because you just want to know what Deion Sanders is going to do, but it doesn't look that great. Gotta watch the bears, which are looking a lot better. I have to say, this year you gotta watch to the end, though. You gotta watch to the end with the bears. This season, if the bears aren't hitting it, then I gotta keep for personal reasons. I gotta watch the Colts. Know how they're doing in the Indianapolis Colts, and then if all else fails, Kansas City, oh, they're probably going to get a win, right? Somebody needs to win that week. So I need to have a winner, preferably five winners, yeah, but at least one so that I just I've learned a lot from watching football.

Kevin Thomas  
Well, you're watching a lot of CBS games. Anytime you can turn Tony Romo off and not listen to him, that's a good idea, in my mind. I'm with you, Michelle.

Michelle Pickett  
Because I'm they're doing a lot of conversations, and I'm trying to pick up, and I'm like, No, I need to focus. So anyway, that's that, right now this football season is that. So that's kind of what I'm doing. If I'm not shopping, I am still a girl. I do do a lot of shopping.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I love to shop, too.

Kevin Thomas  
Amen, bro, we into the lightning round. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
We're into the lightning round. Let's do it.

Kevin Thomas  
That was new.

Michelle Pickett  
I haven't seen that graphic. 

Kevin Thomas  
There's no lightning round graphic. There you go, Dad.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So Michelle, what's your favorite place on the NIU campus?

Michelle Pickett  
Husker stadium? I have good I have good seats. So makes it makes it feel great to watch the game.

Kevin Thomas  
Are you a coffee tea or something stronger person?

Michelle Pickett  
Coffee, sometimes Coffee, tea is a little bit of a mix, but coffee.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Wine in other times it sounded like.

Michelle Pickett  
That's right. Right? If it's a little bit of a rough, rough day, rough week, yeah.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
What's a what's a song that always lifts your mood, Michelle?

Michelle Pickett  
Oh, well, it's a couple, but one that just is great for me is this, why can never remember the title. It's by Cece Winans. Is is really as I can't remember the title,

Kevin Thomas  
Alright, we will accept you singing it for us now, for all to hear later.

Michelle Pickett  
Lip sync, maybe, yeah, and then you it's a song by click. It's a song named click by Jay Z and Kanye West. So little gospel, little hip hop. You know, find something in between.

Kevin Thomas  
Add it to the playlist. Everybody. Add it to the playlist. What's a movie or TV series you can watch endlessly.

Michelle Pickett  
This is us. 

Kevin Thomas  
Do you know all three of those kids were born on my birthday, June 17, 1980, that's I am one of the big three. No, I'm not. But that was a good show too.

Michelle Pickett  
Yeah, this is us. And then you could throw in like Cosby Show, Different World. You could watch that all the time.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, I hear that we're doing a remake of the Different World. A

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I am in for that. I loved that show. Is there, is there something still on your bucket list from a travel perspective?

Michelle Pickett  
Oh, yes. So basically, now that I, you know, I'm dissertation free, I'm looking to re engage with some travel. So I've always wanted to go to Greece. Yeah, don't know how that's going to happen, that's the thing. But I just want to ideally travel to get to all 50 states and then a couple of overseas places.

Kevin Thomas  
So yeah, that's maybe a last one for me. Do you have a hidden talent?

Michelle Pickett  
Some people say I'm funny. Got a good sense of humor. Don't know that I'm a comedian. Other than that, I don't think so.

Kevin Thomas  
A lot of people say Brody's funny, and I don't agree with that, but I think you are, Michelle, so we'll embrace that hidden talent.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Kevin was saying before the show today that he thought he lost his funny. I thought that was pretty good.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, thanks. I found it. It was that your expense.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes. Let's see here, is there? Is there? Is there a book that you'd recommend to everyone, maybe something that you've read for pleasure now that you're done with the doctorate?

Michelle Pickett  
You know, I don't have anything yet. You know, I'm kind of just re engaging with a lot of things. So I don't have a book that I can recommend yet. 

Kevin Thomas  
Alright. Well, we can't end on that one. So last one, birdie, go to comfort food?

Michelle Pickett  
Oh, something pasta, chicken parmesan, you know, something pasta. You know, with this weather too, you just want to sit down with a warm plate, just enjoy and be in the house with some blankets. So, yeah, chicken parm, that's definitely some comfort food. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Well, Michelle, we had so much fun having you on the show today. Oh, great. Was it? Was me. It was awesome to catch up with you.

Kevin Thomas  
So good to see you again, and we look forward to to hearing more about all of your successes at NIU.

Michelle Pickett  
Thank you so much. I appreciate it, guys. I enjoyed myself.

Unknown Speaker  
Good to see you Absolutely. Thanks. Michelle, 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
What a great guest.

Kevin Thomas  
I hadn't been able to catch up with Michelle in quite some time, and I know y'all are connected in a different way, but from your involvement with NIU, but man, she just laid down some knowledge, and we got to talk through some themes that I thought were just fantastic. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Centering, centering that advising relationship in the relational piece so critical. I know we've talked about that a couple of different times, but it never gets old hearing about those things. And I think the proof in the way that students come back to you, or come back to somebody like Michelle and say you had such an impact on my life, it's clear she's living those values out, not just as when she was an advisor, but now as an advising leader, she mentioned some of the same kinds of things, right? As it relates to building trust with the staff that you work with. I love that. 

Kevin Thomas  
She was absolutely fantastic. Yeah, this is great. Hey, you know we're transitioning, we're finishing up the show here, and we've hit the end of the year, yeah, and you know we're in that season. We mentioned this earlier. It's holiday movie time, right? Like, and so I'm curious. It's, do you have a top three Christmas holiday movies that are your go to in the house?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I do, and I have kind of a controversial opinion too. I know that you and I differ incredibly on one of your favorites, which I think is dumb.

Kevin Thomas  
Listen one of this one. It's Elf, folks, he hates Elf, right? There are certain things within the Christmas season should not be allowed. And I listen, I'm gonna put this out here exhibit a Brody said last year they didn't do a tree. And now he's gonna tell you he hates elf. And so I would just say Brody hates humanity, right? Is that Brody just is can't be with part of humanity any longer. He's out. But all right, let's hear your list, and then also why you hate Elf.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
My list, Christmas Story.

Kevin Thomas  
Is that three or number one?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I can't rank them. Okay? I really do love Christmas vacation.

Kevin Thomas  
Okay, that's a good one. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I'm gonna go completely off the rails here. Die Hard is also on my list, and it is a Christmas movie. Like, come on.

Kevin Thomas  
I think about that a lot. Like, if things are, they are their movies themed at Christmas, and are they actually Christmas movies? But for me, the music is a big factor too, and Die Hard falls into that because they have some good music going on throughout all right? So I like your list for the most part. So I got some runner ups, right? Nightmare Before Christmas is a runner up for me. I like that one National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation is a must watch. Underrated for me is Scrooged, like people don't think about Scrooge a lot, but Bill Murray, being Bill Murray, that I really like that Trading Places is a good one. I kind of remember that more from my childhood, right? Of just being in that Christmas timeframe with Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy, I like those. So my number three, and this was tough, it was almost number two. Number three for me is elf, and I in the music and the feeling of it all is what really seals the deal. You know, it's, it's, it's a little bit of a sci fi, or not holiday sci fi version, because, like, you got to believe that this guy's an elf, but Will Ferrell is an elf, and it's freaking fantastic. If you haven't watched the Netflix like, making of show, it's great too, because you kind of see some of the journey things there. You're not gonna watch it because you hate it. Stop being optimistic. I may watch it, all right? I'll believe it when you call me and you're like, Okay, I see why you love it. Number two for me on the list is the Santa Claus, right? Like with Tim Allen, I love that movie. It's been a long time since I've watched that. I may have to go back to that I don't need the second one that Martin Short comes on to, or the third one, I don't need those. The first one is great. I really like, I'm alone in my family in this that I think that this deserves a remake, because it just needs that Christmas holiday spirit. And Tim Allen was pretty young in that one, like, we probably need an update. And then number one on my list, and number one in all of our hearts, Home Alone, man.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I forgot about that.

Kevin Thomas  
Let's go. And this is one I struggle with, right? Because home alone doesn't have to be a Christmas movie, because we could just be traveling somewhere and leave the kid home alone. But it is, of all of these movies, it's also the one that would not work today, because we'd be like, Oh, we left Kevin at home. Let's pick up the cell phone and call him.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah. It's true, right? It is fantastic, right?

Kevin Thomas  
Let's FaceTime him for the next 18 hours. It just does not play anymore. But for the timeframe, Home Alone is a classic John, John Candy, so great in that movie, too. He is, he is, yeah, playing the clarinet and the music in the back of a moving van...

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I was thinking about underrated. I didn't. I had a couple that I like. I forgot I love the Muppet Christmas Carol with who's the guy? The old guy? He's great. Michael Caine. Michael Caine, yeah, he's great in that that's fantastic. Gonzo is really great.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, there. It's a great movie too. Like they're just so many movies that help make the season a little brighter.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's true. All right, gang, I guess we got to stop reminiscing about Christmas movies and we got to get going. 

Kevin Thomas  
Or we could do a whole nother hour just on Christmas movies. Let's do it. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
We hope, we hope your pickup meetings or regular meetings are as fun as what we did today, but until the next time, let's do good and be nice.