Ep. 11 - Jon Mark Hall, University of Southern Indiana

Grab your coffee (or whatever keeps you running through back-to-back meetings) and join Brody and Kevin for another hilarious and heartfelt episode of The Pickup Meeting! This week, they’re talking with Jon Mark Hall, Vice President and Director of Athletics at University of Southern Indiana.

From surviving the chaos of college athletics in the NIL era to leading with empathy and old-school values, Jon Mark shares stories of mentorship, music, and making a difference on and off the field. Oh—and there’s plenty of banter about golf, Taylor Swift, and Thanksgiving food wars (spoiler: Kevin hates turkey).

It’s leadership lessons, laughs, and a little lemon meringue pie all in one episode!

*The Pickup Meeting is a spinoff of the Adventures in Advising podcast!

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Transcript

Kevin Thomas  
And away we go. Welcome to another episode of The Pickup Meeting. How you doing?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Brody? I'm doing great. I'm excited. We've got a good friend of mine on the show today.

Kevin Thomas  
Listen, there's a lot going on there. One, this is a guest I don't know. Two, this is you stating you have a friend and yes, always awesome to hear as well.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
It is. I feel like I have fewer of those every day.

Kevin Thomas  
Well, you're getting older, and that's the way this works. Is what I hear.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, yeah, senior discounts, they're amazing.

Kevin Thomas  
Yes, you're starting to take advantage of the senior discounts. That's what. That's what I remember. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I ordered my first senior discounted breakfast the other day. It was uninspiring, I guess, but I did enjoy the savings.

Kevin Thomas  
I was having a conversation about the podcast with a listener, and they said, Well, I'd let them know that it was your birthday recently. And so they said, Well, how old is he? And like, they said, my assumption is that you guys are close in age, and I'm like, What is wrong with you every day, I know. And I was like, He's 55 and they're like, oh, he looks tremendous for 55 so when you tried for the senior breakfast, did you get any grief?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Well, we were joking about it at the table, and I think our server heard me joking about it, so they didn't even ask for my ID, which I assume is probably not a thing that they do in a place like that.

Kevin Thomas  
Probably not, probably not. You know, one of these things that I think about when you mentioned breakfast, right? And like this, like people like certain meals. People like certain things. What is something that you love, or that everyone seems to love, but you don't love at all.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, we were talking about this the other day, like, I don't mind watching this sport, for example, but I cannot understand how people enjoy playing this sport, and that's golf. Like, what golf is? Terrible. Like, I don't get it, five hours of pure miserableness.

Kevin Thomas  
And you're saying in all formats?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Like, I mean miniature golf's okay. Like, it's that's fast miniature I don't have to swing a club and swear at myself for being terrible. Have you ever played golf? Yes, I've played golf. I've tried many times.

Kevin Thomas  
Oh man, you got a little sassy there. Yes, I Okay. Like, I don't know these things. I don't know everything about you. So, like, we played it many times. Were you good at it?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Never, I've never been good at it. Like, I'll hit a good shot from time to time. And that's how golf gets you, right? It, it begs you to come back, but the only way to get good is to practice a lot, and you have to be you have to spend five hours like, like I did running as an adult, and I enjoy running. And the great thing about running is, you know, you can do it, and it doesn't take very long, and you can get better at it pretty fast.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, golf's not that way? No, no, I play golf, or I have, I don't play as much anymore, and I would not say that I'm good, but I have two holes in one. What? Yeah, one is legit, like I hit it, and I was having a terrible day of golf, and it went in, and, matter of fact, we didn't really see it go in. And so we're looking behind the hole, because I was like, Well, I must have flown over, right? And then all of a sudden, a buddy's at the hole, and he says some curse words, and he's like, it's in the hole. Like, then we all tackled each other on the green it was pretty amazing. And then the second one was with my father on a course in Bowling Green, and I know that I at least bounced it off of a tree and two branches and then it rolled in.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's awesome. So there you go. Like, that's Happy Gilmore style.

Kevin Thomas  
It is. It is for me, like, one of these things...

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
What do you hate that everybody else seems to love?

Kevin Thomas  
And I don't know if it's the seems to love, right? Because, like, the initial thing that came to my mind was group chats, because everyone seems to start a group chat, and I think they are Satanic. I'm not a fan at all. Like, please stop the group chats. I don't want to leave them, but I will, because they're terrible. I know I'm in a fantasy football league with a bunch of guys I don't know through another friend, and when the group chat gets going, I want to just like, fall apart, like it's the worst. I don't care about it, and I don't want to hear it. But the thing that came to my mind is Taylor Swift. I know we just lost all of our audience. I and I don't know what it is like. There are songs that are catchy, and I get it, I just don't understand the obsession. And then, and she's not the only artist I have this problem with, but her songs feel like inside jokes that I'm not in on, right? Like I just don't I don't want to have to follow everything about the artist to understand why the song is good. Haters are gonna hate I guess. I'm sure that that's a song reference.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I mean, I don't know that I enjoy her music all that much, but I do certainly understand her importance, right? She's an iconic figure, no question. But she's made a couple records here where she's done a lot of collaborations with artists that I really enjoy, that I have found really appealing, pretty fun, to be honest. Not for me. We definitely did lose listeners. I don't think we lost listeners by me hating golf, but you hating Taylor Swift? Yeah, or not understanding Taylor Swift, that's not good for us. 

Kevin Thomas  
So in the last several episodes, we've lost people because of your lack of understanding of Harry Potter and and also my hatred of Taylor Swift. For the audio listeners, Matt has just put up that Taylor Swift has sold over 248 million albums units globally. So yes, apparently I'm on my own in this I feel the passive aggressive judgment from our producer Matt Markin.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's wonderful. I do appreciate that, Matt, thank you. Notice he didn't say there are so many people that love golf that Brody shouldn't say that he hates golf.

Kevin Thomas  
No, he wasn't jumping in on that one. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I mean, golf isn't even the golf's not even the like most popular recreational activity isn't both, at least bowling used to be, and I'm much bigger fan of bowling.

Kevin Thomas  
I feel golfers are super offended by the bowling analogy to this, but yeah, like, I think we need to move on to different topic now, because we're just throwing people away. Here we have on an athletic director, and you're just sitting there, just ripping golf.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
It's what I'm it's what I'm here to do, right? I'm here to make enemies, I guess, today.

Kevin Thomas  
So you asked me this question, and so I'm going to ask your question, if you could take off a year and do anything, what would it be?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Golly, I think this was based in a phone conversation we were having where I was just like, Man, I'm really tired. It'd be great to have like a sabbatical. And I think the old institution where I used to work, where Jon Mark is at the University of Southern Indiana, they had administrative sabbaticals, and I wouldn't do research or anything like that. Maybe I'd follow Guster for a year, just get in a van with my wife and go to every Guster show for an entire year. That would be a lot of fun.

Kevin Thomas  
Do you own a van? Or is this this part of the deal?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You know, I think that would be a lot of fun. I was telling you the other day, one of the things I've really enjoyed when I visit new places is going to record stores. And I think it'd be fun to spend a year interviewing record store owners, like driving around the country to some of the most famous record stores in the country and saying, Hey, what's what's your story? How'd you get started? Tell me about what you're listening to, just kind of a combination of all the things that I might watch on YouTube related to music and records. How about you? What would you what would you spend a year doing? 

Kevin Thomas  
I thought about this one a bit, and so like, I think for me, I would figure out a way to travel the globe, attending the biggest sporting events that there are, right? Super Bowl, Wimbledon, the masters. That's golf, Brody, World Cup, March Madness, you name it. I'm going World Series, Stanley Cup. Just going to all and just to, like, see how each country celebrates what they do. Like, going to different soccer matches, hearing the chants go into, like, baseball in Tokyo, to see how it's different from baseball in America. I think it would just be so fantastic to just do a global tour of all things sports, and then along the way, hit, like all the Disney Parks too.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Oh, that would be, that's it. That's a nice cap off. No question.

Kevin Thomas  
Listen, this was just you're dreaming, right? If you take a year off and do anything you can financially, do the things that you're capable of, because that would not be as much. I'd probably be getting a van and going to record store.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
There's some serious judgment here.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, I like my answer better than yours, but that's okay. It's my answer. That's why we're friends. That's right. Listen, as I'm at all of these sporting events that are super cool, maybe there's some record stores in those towns and we can catch up. Yeah, yeah. Speaking of catching up, are we ready to get to our guest? 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's as mean as we've been to each other the whole like, the whole time we've recorded. 

Kevin Thomas  
Brody's super mean to me all the time. Take that sound byte, Matt Markin. Let's put that out there. Brody's really mean.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Well, let's see if we can bring in one of my friends and remedy this and get back on track. Jon Mark Hall, how you doing?

Jon Mark Hall  
I'm doing great. Brody, a Kevin, you guys doing okay?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, we're clearly having fun.

Jon Mark Hall  
You are. I'm enjoy. I'm enjoying the back and forth here. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So we need, we need to do it a proper introduction, right? So Jon Mark here is joining us today. He's the Vice President and Director of Athletics at the University of Southern Indiana. He's been a part of usI athletics since 1995 starting as an assistant ad and head men's tennis coach. He became the Director of Athletics in 2002 long story short, he's now the vice president for athletics, and over his tenure, he's guided USI to through some remarkable growth, a transition to division one. He led the Screaming Eagles to multiple conference championships, postseason appearances, national titles in baseball and softball, and he graduated from Murray State. Kevin, you're, I mean, you all are automatically connected. Now I've this, this is like the second time we've had two Murray State grads in the same podcast, and I'm sitting here by myself, just a lowly Indiana University graduate, right? And here you are two Murray guys again, and as well as the Ohio State University.

Kevin Thomas  
Okay, I love that one less. But yes, love it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And what I've really loved about Jon Mark, right, is he's kind of combined this deep commitment to athletic excellence, but an equally strong dedication to academics, leadership, community engagement. I knew Jon Mark, or got to know Jon Mark very well when I was serving as Faculty Athletics Representative at the University of Southern Indiana. It's our privilege to have you on, Jon Mark. We're happy to have you.

Jon Mark Hall  
No, I really, I'm excited about being here and, you know, sharing some thoughts and ideas with you all. And no, I really appreciate it.

Kevin Thomas  
Anytime we can have a Murray State racer, join Murray State racer. Gosh, such a good win, such a good win. That is no racers today, for sure.

Jon Mark Hall  
That's for sure. There's something special about Murray. It's hard to tell people unless you've experienced or it's hard to explain it, but it's, you know, I grew up in Murray, and stayed and went to school there. And it's a great place. Deep ties there, for sure.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So, Jon Mark, you've been a part of usI now for nearly three decades, from coach to ad to VP. What's kept you energized and inspired all these years?

Jon Mark Hall  
But you know, it's, you know, I was fortunate to grow up on a campus. You know, my dad was an administrator at Murray before he passed. When I was a teenager, my mom was an accounting professor at Murray. And Kevin, I don't know if you ever had any accounting classes, but my mom was accounting professor there, and so I don't know Brody, I think maybe just the, you know, I just always enjoy me. I kind of grew up on it, right? You know, going to games, and, you know, probably tagging along for university wide picnics and, you know, all those type of things. And so I think, you know, and honestly, that doesn't always translate. Sometimes it makes you want to do something different, right? But I think as I moved along, you know, I think in when I was at Murray, I think I had the desire to be in pro sports, and then once I kind of learned a little bit more, and really, you know, thought about it, it must be candid, too. Sometimes, you know, the job and opportunity might take you one way or the other, but I think the, you know, being back on a campus and just, you know, it's, you know, it's, it's really transformative time for those students that are there and to be part of that and, you know, feed off that energy. And I think that's what drove me, you know, back to it. And then, you know, really never thought about leaving it just it's never really crossed my mind to do you know that much you know anything different, really. And so, you know, and I've been fortunate, you know, really only worked at two institutions in 30 plus years. And that was South Carolina, Spartanburg, which is now South Carolina Upstate. And then I've been at USI for, you know, 30 years, and you're just being, there's just so much to change, you know, y'all are on campuses. It's, yeah, there's times where it gets a little bit, you know, it's a little bit the same here and there. But, boy, there's a lot of things that happen that are different. Your days are different, you know, getting it, being around young people and is, is, you know, has really kept me, you know, pretty locked into what I'm doing. 

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah. And I think that when you talk about what you've been doing at two institutions, we ask a lot of start of the journey questions to guests that have been on the show and and so like when you first arrived in what you're doing now at USI, Could you have imagined where you're at today and what athletics looks like today at the collegiate level? 

Jon Mark Hall  
No, so I would have never thought I would be here that long. I think especially, and I don't want to obviously speak for everybody at a stage in their career, but I think you all would know better than me, but I think most people assume when they get somewhere, they'll be there for a little while, right? And it's not because you don't, don't like it there or but there's just going to be another opportunity or something else. And, you know, my wife and I aren't from Evansville, and you know, I remember we moved here. She's from Louisville, which is a bigger city and more things. Evansville is a nice city and plenty to do. But you know, you're thinking, Okay, we'll be here for a handful of years, and then we'll move on to somewhere else, and eventually get to where you're settled. So, you know, from a personal standpoint, I never would have thought that I would, you know, be in Evansville for for so long. Just never, you know, I have a large family. My kids are all born and raised here. I would have never imagined that. But then to the second part of what you're saying, Kevin, so look, this is going to be Mr. Obvious here. There's no way that, you know, I would have thought that what I'm doing that, you know, what, then in 1995 would look like what it is to today. I mean, you know, I tell people not to jump too far. But like, you know, even five years ago, I never would have thought I'd be talking to an agent about a college student athlete, right? I mean, like, what is going on here? Like, you know, like, I didn't sign up for that, right? I mean, so the the way this thing has flipped, some things slowly, but now, really, if you think historically, you know, 20 years from now, looking back at this, you don't think how fast this flipped. And to I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's really unbelievable. You won't even be able to explain it to people about how quickly it went from one thing to the next, and really, by that time, people won't care. It's just the way it is. But it's definitely No, I've never would have thought this. And it's not that I'm against all of these things that are happening. I think I am. I'm not real fond of a few things, but, but it's just that, you know, nobody's really prepared for people can say whatever they want, and I'll, you know, I'm a, you know, I trust in people and believe in people, but when somebody says, Oh, yeah, well, I knew this was coming to be this way, I'm like, Yeah, whatever you did. You didn't think this, right? So anyway.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So, Jon Mark, you know you and I now have been friends for quite some time, and one of the things I've always been impressed, right, is your leadership approach, though, with that kind of change, has been pretty steadfast, right? What? What kind of lessons have you taken from like this quick, these quick changes, and how, like, what kinds of lessons have you taken from athletics or from your time as an administrator that you think have helped you be a strong leader in a space that is changing and evolving so quickly?

Jon Mark Hall  
You know, I don't, you know my personality is just, you know, you just, you can't get too high up and too far down. And I know it's cliche, but you know, you you control the things that you can control, and you know some things you can't, and if you want to make change, you don't give up, but some things are just going to be a little bit out of of your control, in, in, in, I think my it's not like some calculated approach to me. I'm going to be candid like I don't have you don't sit around. Think about how exactly am I going to do this? I think my approach with really, anything I've done in my career is is to hopefully be the kind of leader that you know again, that that they understand my values and what I'm about and and I don't have to go give a. A, you know, a rah rah speech or dissertation, they're gonna see how I conduct myself every day, and that they're going to understand what my expectations are of how other people you know, you know, move forward on a on a day to day basis, and and so I think with the change you know, you can, you can complain about it. You can gripe about it. You can, you know, act like the, you know, the walls are caving in, so to speak. Or you can be like, Okay, let's we want to keep moving forward right in. We want to be we want to keep making progress in, in so we've, we have to adapt right again. I know I'm saying things, but you have to adapt, or you're just going to be left behind. So as opposed to getting too high or too low with this, let's think about the things that we can do every day to help make change, make things you know better. You know, especially, we have a lot of Brody you know this at our institutes. We have a lot of people that have been here for a long time. That's right? And, and we're asking people all the time now, they have, they need to reevaluate the way they approach things, really, way more often now than they ever have before. And so, you know, you have to think a little bit differently, right? So not to harp on the agent thing, but I could, I could say, I'm not talking to somebody's agent, and this is not who we are, what we are about. But you know, if that young person, maybe they need that guidance of that person. So we're going to communicate with this person, but we're still going to try to make sure that that there has to be some communication between the student and us, or they're going to finish here, or go on to their next place, and they've, they don't, they're not going to know how to survive. Because we all know it's easy for us because we're experienced. But you can't have other people handle all of your business all the time. I mean, at some point in time, you have to, you have to be the one that walks into somebody's office, or you have to be the one that talks to professor about missing a class or doing poorly on an exam that you want to try to get some assistance with, or whatever. It can't be a slew of administrators or academic counselors or whatever, like you have to be able to do that, or you're going to go out eventually and just not be able to survive, right? So I don't know if I'm really answering it brony. I just been more of a, you know, like we're just, we keep adapting, we keep changing. We roll with it. You You know, definitely more of a, you know, there's look we can all go to a bookstore and read 100 different ways to lead, yeah, in but I'd say, if I'd be categorized, mine would just probably be lead by example, right? Like, we don't ask anybody to do anything that I wouldn't, you know, do myself again. You know, whatever these things are, or I haven't done before, and we're just going to try to and really, at the core of it, just have to treat people the right way. And I think that's we had a staff meeting today. We talked about just, we have some changes going in with our conference right now, and it can be stressful, but we just have to stay positive. We have to keep moving forward. We have to make ourselves as is is marketable, a place to our student athletes and to our students, and into perspective conferences or other conference members, and just, you know, keep, keep, you know, keep moving in that direction.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I've definitely seen that in your approach, right? And working all those years with the Great Lakes Valley Conference, right? So that, that, I think your answer really sums up what I've seen from you in your professional life during that time for sure.

Kevin Thomas  
A large majority of our listeners, Jonn Mark, I would say, probably aren't super familiar with the ins and outs of the athletic world, right? Like Brody and I talk about this a lot is, you know, we have a good amount of folks that visit the show that are in the advising world, but student success and admissions and but I don't know that a lot of them are going to be like, Oh, I know everything in there I need to know about athletics. And even somebody that works in athletics, I don't know that they know everything that they need to know in this environment about athletics, right? But when you look at all of the things that are going on, what you know in you had a transition to division 1, NIL going on, conference realignment, transfer portal, chaos. And I think the transfer portal part of this probably hitting a large number of our of the advising community that's listening in some way, shape or form. What are the like, one or two things that you think about that probably most folks wouldn't consider sitting in a seat that they don't understand athletics, but you think might be helpful for them to know?

Jon Mark Hall  
Well, and it's not just because of that lead up you just gave but I think of advising, and I think of the transfer situation. I think about that a lot because so. Let's, let's, let's maybe go a little different direction, like the people that do enjoy intercollegiate athletics and follow it from afar, when these individuals are transferring, they have no concept of what that of what that does to a student from the academic side of things, right? You all do, and maybe a lot of these listeners do, so this is maybe going a little bit against what, maybe what you're asking, because I think they do, but I think what gets lost in the shuffle to people is, I mean, these are, these are students that have amassed credit right at whatever institution or institutions they've been. And, as you all know, and a lot of people listen to that, that doesn't mean that it's just all you know, all is accepted by the next school. It all is going to lead to the and I think we do a terrible job of losing sight of that, because you might be able to go make a little extra money at another place or play more, a little bit play more. But nobody talks about this academic path or journey that these young people are on it like totally gets lost in the in the shuffle. And that really bothers me, because, you know the so again, I went to grad school at Ohio State, some Ohio State football fan, well, my friends that are Ohio State football fans, they don't think about any of that stuff. Like, right? That guy came from here, would, you know, I think, wonder how that transition was, right? You know, how many classes got lost in the shuffle, or how many classes did he take? That just don't even count anymore. Or in we really lose sight of that. Sometimes we've really tried hard to make sure that, like, like we're part of this, like, it's not athletics in the institution. We're just we're part of of the whole thing and and we are different. And it gets people frustrated at times, because there are nuances, but you try not to be different, right? You try to be just the the same as every other department on campus. And so I will say this, and I do think sometimes maybe this more answers question that, that I think people that aren't in athletics, I would hope that they would understand that some of us in athletics, we do think about that stuff a lot like that is not most, and I'm not saying all like, I'm not gonna like, there may be administrators and coaches that have no worries about that. They're just trying to win the next game or move on. But most of us really try to lock in, to be a part of the fabric of the institution in, yeah, be part of the big picture. Not, oh, there's athletics, or they're, you know, they're doing their own thing, and nobody's, you know, they get all the money. Or they get, like, No, we don't know. We don't really operate. Most of us, you know, not that way. And so I do think that, I think it's a little again. I don't think any of us are looking for a pat on the back or anything. But I do think sometimes people don't think that we're thinking of any of those things. So maybe that's what I would say, is like no, most of us are in and and we think about it a lot.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And it's not just talk from my perspective, Jon Mark, right, like the time that I spent as the Faculty Athletics rep, right, there's a long tradition at USI of high academic achievement among student Athletes, and we've talked about this a lot. But like, Can you recall, or do you can you highlight, what do you think are some of the specific strategies that have been most effective in supporting academic success at USI, right? Like, I mean, lots of awards, lots of students who are achieving at the highest levels in the classroom, and I think that institution took a lot of pride in that. I think the Athletic Department took a lot of pride in that. But what was in the sauce, like, what, what were some of the strategies that you thought were really effective in making sure that that happened?

Jon Mark Hall  
To me, this is, you know, it's the most simple thing, it's, it's making sure that your students and everyone around believe that you believe in in the academic you know, their academic journey in this mission, and it's just not a bunch of BS where somebody sees right through you and you're like, hey, you when you're talking to them about their grades. It's not all about just staying eligible, right? It's not all about, you know, but it's about what are you going to do next? And in I'm a firm believer that just because somebody has a little bit better grades than the next doesn't mean they'd be any better at whatever they decide to do, whether it's what any. Of us do, or right, what have you, but, but making sure that they understand that that commitment to athletics, and we're not just, we're not just saying it right, but, you know, we don't have a ton of resources right to to, you know, we don't send tutors on the road with teams, and they don't have, you know, each team doesn't have their own academic advisor. Obviously, at usr Brody, we use, you know, the unit that you over saw, I mean, that was our group, right? We didn't have any athletic academic counselors. Now, we do have a couple now, but they're not true advisors. They're not academicians, right? They're just helping student athletes guide, you know, get to the right people, what have you. But to me, I think the key is just not you know people believing that you're not just saying things to you know, because they you feel like it's the right thing to say that, like they believe that you really, you know, care about them. We just had a discussion today in our staff meeting about, you know, to Kevin's point, with the portal and things going on, we have a little bit more turnover than we ever have, right? And it's all not. Some of it's maybe not not. Sometimes it's not all bad, like somebody just wants to go somewhere else and grass a little greener. Sometimes you do have to make some hard decisions, and, you know, remove somebody from a team, or what have you, but we still have to be there for that student, right like we cannot we see them in the building two weeks later and avoid them, or we have to be the adults. We have to be the responsible people that are going to still help these young people, even if they broke six rules that we had as a team. Well, let's still try to see if we can wherever their next step is, we can help prepare them, you know, for that. So I think just, you know, making sure people believe in, you know, in that, and that what you're doing, and you seem sincere and real. And I think that's, you know, I think it's really important, but, but, but it's harder in this, in this day and age. I mean, you know, it just is, I mean, yeah, I mean, I could get, you know, we've got examples here, you know, just, you know, students that I'm not saying they're not worried about their academic end goal, but they're, they're chasing something a little bit different and trying to, man, you know, work with them and manage them and make sure they still lock into what's important. It's, it's getting a little bit more difficult. And you know what? It's hard to blame them for. It's hard to blame some of them because, you know, you know, if somebody's offered them a lot of money and an opportunity to do something, it's, you know, it's hard to be super critical, but you hope they understand the whole big picture of what they're you know what they're doing.

Kevin Thomas  
It is an interesting thing at this moment, because you talked a little bit about the balance that an administrator used to have between wins and losses and success in the classroom and and now, I think, from a student athlete standpoint, and then, you know, for those folks walking our campuses, and we all have fairly large experience at regional institutions, smaller public whatever phrasing you might want to use, that that's the reality now. And I think a lot of folks don't understand, even when you work on a college campus, that you use the Ohio State example. Let's use others, right? Like I grew up, well, I spent a lot of time being a fan of University of Kentucky basketball. Well, like there's been rumors for years that they're paying their athletes, and they're doing this and they're doing that and all these things. But now for our students, not only is it the balance of being a student athlete or being a student and being an athlete, it's also, if I have a good 10 game stretch here, I could go sit on the bench at one of these big schools and make a pretty large sum of money. And that's just a wild reality that we sit in. And so I think that when you work with your coaches, and when you're thinking about things like, how do you define success for a student athlete, beyond wins and losses? 

Jon Mark Hall  
You know, you really want them to leave saying they've just had a really good experience right in in most the time, if somebody leaves and said they had a good experience, and something went right along the way. And you hope that they would be, that they would be better, you know, for that said experience. I mean, you know, Brody and I've spent time on looking at, you know, exit interviews and evaluations, and, you know, reading through some of those things, and, you know, trying to figure out, how can we make the experience the best possible way to for the student? But, you know, it's, you know, Kevin, I think it's, and I don't know if I'm answering this, but just you try to make sure they understand the totality of what is happening. Right? And the totality of what decisions that they make, you know, could could lead to, and in in trying, I think at first, I think in myself, and I feel like a reasonable person, but like I would get frustrated that somebody might have a chance to, you know, have the 10 game stretch and then go make a lot of money right at the next spot. But then I learned, like, Why? Why should I? Like, that's the reality, right? So now, how do I help this person, or a coach, talk to the student about working through this situation and like, for instance, let's just use basketball as an example. You know what you don't want to do, and we can't make the decision for them, but you what you don't want to do is you don't, or I don't think you want to make sure that if somebody thinks they can, let's say they leave USI and go somewhere else. Unless I'm just making up a number, let's say they can make $200,000 at the next institution which we've had people students that do that. So it's hard to tell a young person that they can't go take that, but what I think we can tell them is, is that if you go there and then, so you had this great 10 game stretch here, you might not have that there, and what's the end value. So if you don't play at the next school, then that earning capacity for you in the sport of basketball is going to be done like it's over right now. If you stay here or go somewhere else and maybe make 50,000 or 100,000 but you play, and you want to go play overseas, or what have you, you still have your earning capacity in this trade that you, you know want to participate in. So again, we can't guarantee any of those things will happen, but to me, we have to our coaches and and I don't have as much interaction with students in that, but now I try to to help them, but just making sure they understand the gravity of those decisions. But unfortunately, we're, you know, the system right now is, I don't know that we're obviously, they're earning money, which I think is fine, and that's but, but I don't know that we're the process, and the way it's going is really doing them a lot of favors.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
If you had a magic wand. Jon Mark, what would it look like like if you could make it what you wanted to make it? What would it look like? 

Jon Mark Hall  
I mean, you know, I think what's happening right now is a lot of institutions, including us, we're really sharing revenue that we, you know, have yet to, you know, create, or, you know, you're, you know, it's, it's, it's like, so the true NIL stuff to me is like, we should have done that. Where we really messed up was, you know, that should have been going on for the last 15 or 20 years, right? So, you know, I mean, we know the popular examples, right? If Tim Tebow could have profited from some of those jerseys Florida was was selling, or Johnny Manziel could have done some of that, you know, gone sign autographs at the local, you know, grocery store for 100 bucks of football or whatever, we wouldn't be where we are so drastically changed today, right? So we really messed these things up, 1015, 20 years ago. So really, Brody, they answered question. I wish we could go back in time a little bit right, and make it right then. And then we wouldn't have such a drastic shift. Because if Caitlin Clark can go make a million dollars from State Farm when she's at Iowa, what, what, what, that's awesome, right? But if, if Caitlin Clark is being paid, and she's not a good example on this side, but if somebody in her situation is getting paid $2 million to play basketball, and the basketball program is creating $800,000 in revenue, that's, you know, that's not, good, right?

Kevin Thomas  
I think it's just this huge struggle, right? Like, and so, like, I don't know that I would say I empathize with the world that you're in at this moment, because I just don't know that I can fully even grasp it. But as a sports fan and as somebody that's at University of Central Arkansas, a Murray State fan, Murray State grad, I look at and go, Okay, if this would have been around 3540 years ago, like Scottie Pippen doesn't happen here on our campus, right? John Morant does not play as long as he played at Murray State University. And it's like those are experiences that fans got to have, but being a student on the campuses that we're talking about in those periods of time is just it's also part of that student experience. When we talk about student success, we often think about, okay, well, what's happening from the student athlete experience? What's also happened from the fan experience that keeps them engaged and coming to campus and. And being involved and being a part of the community, and it's just, it's such an interesting balance that you work in right now. Kudos to you and all of your colleagues that have decided to keep going this path, because it's a lot Jon Mark?

Jon Mark Hall  
I think you've given, you know, some really good examples, and then, and then, what happens now too, is from, you know, if you have a donor base and a fan base. It's really wants to support. They, they've, they've, they have a little bit of a negative attitude at time, not but because they feel like, you know, if, if so, let's use Scottie Pippen. Well, he's going to be gone. So, you know, why do I need to get super excited? Like all he's going to do is have this great year and go. So now I'm not as invested, as opposed to, hey, we have Scottie Pippen here. This is great. Hopefully he's back next year and and we can really build on this thing. And everybody's excited and getting to, you know, know him as a person, or John Moran, whoever. But now you almost have this, you know, kind of cynical. You're like, well, that's not gonna, you know. Now, at the at the larger institutions, a little bit different, right? You know. So, you know, because you feel like you can retain them and and, but you feel it's we got to stay positive. It feels like you it's the mountain to climb to have sustained success because of the rosters turning feels difficult again. We had this, I know I'm just coming off a staff meeting today. We were talking today about how hard this is hard, right? Like, so, and I wasn't trying to be I was trying to be like, this is hard. Like, every win we get, and every student we retain and has a success story. Like, I feel like we should be going to celebrate every night, right? Like, this is so hard right now, right? Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's what we're doing. I think it's going to settle down after, I mean me personally, I mean probably when I'm done with this, but settle down a little bit and and become a little bit more manageable. I do believe that, because I don't know if we can sustain this at this pace, but that's it's not going to happen overnight.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I do, I do worry about schools, like the ones where we've worked right a lot, being able to sustain the kind of financial commitment this, that athletic excellence has really kind of pushed on and thrust on all all schools, right? It's just, you know, it used to be if you were a coach and you found a diamond in the rough, and you were able to develop them that was good on you, and then you were able to, kind of, you were kind of able to see the fruits of your labor. And now you really, you just have to defend all the time, right, stopping folks from kind of finding a better deal or getting to a better spot.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, it's interesting. And so, Jon Mark, I'm curious from your aspect of leadership, who have been your mentors or role models, whether that's in athletics or leadership or life that you think help guide you today?

Jon Mark Hall  
Yeah, so I, I think the Steve Newton was the ad at USI, who, who I came with. And, you mean, look, I think all of us would say, the people that we work for and with, like you wouldn't, most of us would say, Look, we have some I wouldn't do it that way, right, but, but these, you know, like, I think all of us would would say, I don't know that anybody's ever worked for the what they would call the perfect or leader, right? But, but, but, I've really the way he approached people. And I'll give you a really quick story, if you don't mind, and it's a Murray story, right?

Kevin Thomas  
We'll allow it then.

Jon Mark Hall  
He was the basketball coach at Murray. Okay, he had great success there. My dad was an administrator, Murray, and he passed away when I was a sophomore in high school, right? So, so we were in grade and Murray, but my dad passed away, and, you know, in the Newton's knew him, Mr. You know, so they so, there's, there's a relationship there. But I'll never forget. I mean, I'll say, I mean, I can't remember what I had for lunch today, right? But, like, I can't, like, when Murray won the OVC tournament in RACER arena when I was in college, and there's this, you know, big scrum on the court, not Scrum. I shouldn't say, like, we're celebrating, right? And, and, you know, Coach Newton, I mean, like, this is career defining stuff for a coach, right? You're going to the NCAA tournament. I don't know if that's the year we beat NC State or we got, but doesn't, I don't, I can't put that part together, but, but Coach Newton grabbed me. He's had, I mean, he's has a career defining moment, right? And he grabbed me and said, man, your dad would be happy today, would he? Your dad would be, you know, proud of us today, right? He's got this mentality and this high, one of the highest moments of his career in life, and he went on to be the head coach of South Carolina, right? Because of success, and he's thinking about other people and who helped him get there, right? And so I've really tried to, like, think of that, like, not just that moment, but like, you know, the way you treat people and make them feel, isn't it's important, and that wasn't a like, there's no way he thought about that in advance, right? He didn't do it to I mean, I don't, my dad's passed away. There's no, he doesn't receive any bonus points for saying something nice to this college student. It's just because he's a really good dude, right? And he thinks about people, and so, you know, he's was, was one of the people that that, you know, that always just really, you know, you just try to, you know, treat people the right way. And then my uncle was a football coach in Union County, Kentucky growing up, and he just was, you know, just the way he treated his players. And, you know, in in, you know, just another inspiring person, you know, to me, just to see how he would lead really young men from a kind of rough community who didn't have a lot and try to build them as a team together and buy into, you don't, can't be the star today. We need this person, I think, you know. And honestly, my parents were, you know, great mentors for me, but Steve Newton and my uncle, who coached high school football, were kind of the people that from an athletic side of things, really, kind of, you know, helped me try to, you know, the way I'd want to treat, you know, treat people.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
It always, it always gives me a little hope to hear stories like that that we've all had people like that that have meant such a difference in our lives, right? I know that. I know, and I really appreciate you sharing those stories. Those were both great. Those are both great examples of kind of how you and then like the impact it has, but then how you can use that in your life as well, right? So thanks for sharing that Jon Mark.

Kevin Thomas  
And when we have some of the conversations we had at the beginning of the show where your role has evolved in the way that it has, to me, it just speaks to you as a leader, and we just met on the podcast today. But when you're talking about the relational approach to what you're doing, whether you're in somebody's life for a fleeting moment or for four years or for 40 years, your impact is by who you are and how you handle it, and how you conduct yourself, and the impression that you can leave. And I think that says a lot, no matter what your role is, and no matter what you're doing.

Jon Mark Hall  
I appreciate that. I think that, you know, there's, I mean, you all do the same thing. We deal with students all the time, and I think you know it's, it's, again, that part is hard too, because I would say that if, if I don't know about you all, but if, if I interact with 50 students, I mean, there's only going to be one of the 50 that might have any type of close to of life experience that that I similar, like, I mean, these people are different. You don't know what they've been through or what, you know, yeah, and I've really tried to do that too, which I know we like, I can't act like I know what you're going through, or I can't act like, like, oh yeah, I get it. Like I learned early on I said, Oh yeah, I get what you're talking about. That was not a good answer, right? Not answer, but not a good approach. Like they're looking at you, like, you don't know what I'm going through, right? I mean, they're right, you know, so...

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Well, Jon Mark, let's have some fun. Let, let's kind of let you off the hook here a little bit. We've been asking some tough questions. Let's, let's have some fun, right? Like so maybe share with us, maybe what's something about you that most people would know, maybe a hobby or a hidden talent that you've got?

Jon Mark Hall  
Well, I don't, I don't, I don't know of any hidden talents. I can tell you that I'm pretty, pretty vanilla that way. So, um, you know, I'm pretty, I'm a pretty open book, you know, I do think that, you know, look, I have a large family. Have six children. My wife's awesome. I mean, family is super important to me, and so really spending time and doing, you know, cool things with them, and that's, that's kind of what that I enjoy doing, right? Like, so, you know, I'm, I think I'm a little more of a music person, nothing like you Brody, like, I'm not even close to that, but I'm definitely more of a music person than people with, you know, like, every once a while, I tell people, when I was in high school and college, I was a big R&B guy, they're like, what, you know, what I'm like, yeah.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So are you a Lionel Richie fan?

Jon Mark Hall  
Well, I mean, I saw Lionel Richie in concert, I'm sure, you know, back in the day. So definitely, for sure, I don't, I don't, you know, go that way as much now. But. But I do. I like music. I, you know, I told Brody I went to, went to Ocean's calling Festival last couple weeks ago in Maryland, and saw some just awesome bands, three days of music and with my wife. And enjoyed that. And so it was funny too, because when you all were talking, and I was off, it was like, What y'all were talking about, like, I'd almost want to do the combination of those things, like my wife, like, I'd like to, I'd like to rent for a year, like, a sprinter van that you can sleep in, right, and just start driving. And then I'd like to go to sporting events and record store. Like, I just like to stop wherever and just, you know, pull over and sleep and just keep driving. So it was interesting, the combination of those things. 

Kevin Thomas  
Record stores during the day, sporting events at night, there you go.

Jon Mark Hall  
I'm, you know, definitely, I think Brody would have a deeper dive into the record stores than I would, but, but you know, most a lot of those bands that Brody, you know, knows I've never heard of, or, you know, I gotta do some research on but, but he's taught me, taught me a lot about music, which is good so, but no, I enjoy, you know, you know, those type of really enjoy being around friends and just hanging out. And, you know, I like golf a little bit. I definitely don't have the golf hatred that Brody does. Kevin. So I could probably, we could probably go do that sometimes, if you want, we'll just leave Brody back to pro shot or clubhouse and we'll meet him afterwards.

Kevin Thomas  
So hey, one of my holes in one is at Miller golf course. 

Jon Mark Hall  
Nice. That's awesome. That's awesome. That's awesome.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I know you've, I know you've been chasing messie around, right? You're kind of, you've seen messie play a couple times. You're, do? You've got a new, like, hobby that the Nashville MLS team,

Jon Mark Hall  
Yeah, I definitely have that is really come in my life over the last four or five, six years, it's, you know, and really been a, you know, I know Brody and I talk, you know, a lot about just being positive and happy. Kevin and, you know, bringing joy in a weird way. The Nashville soccer club has brought me a lot of joy and fun over the last, you know, five or six years, I have a friend of mine who I grew up in with, Murray that started the USL team in Nashville, and then he actually hired Mike. His name is David Dill. He hired Mike Jacobs. Is the GM, and Mike was the soccer coach at University of Evansville. We went to church together. He coached some, you know, couple of my kids. And so it's got this weird, you know, three way connection. Now, that wasn't, you know, I just happened. It's just, it's an interesting connection now. And so I'm a big, yeah, Nashville soccer club, fam going this weekend, mess season town, and I'm excited about so jealous seeing him. Yeah, this will be the second time. And so, yeah, it's brought, you know, we, me and my boys watch it over the weekend when we're together. And, you know, we've, it's just, you know, I just, I root for them hard. Like, it's, it's funny, because, and I'm not a soccer like, like, Brody's like, a soccer person. I'm not really, I've grown into this. And, like, you know, I'd say if I could ask for one team to win the championship. I mean, you know, it used to be the Bengals. Now it's Nashville FC, right? So, you know, so, yeah, but no, it's been a lot of fun, and I've enjoyed, I've enjoyed that over the last handful of years.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's great.

Kevin Thomas  
Very good. Well, we're gonna move into the lightning round. I think we might have just hit your your favorite sports team outside of usI, so we're gonna, we're gonna skip that one. What's your favorite vacation spot?

Jon Mark Hall  
We enjoy going to Saint George Island in Florida. It's just a little place. It's not lot, not a lot of tourists there. And we've been going there every Christmas, most, every Christmas vacation with our kids. And that's, that's, that's our go to spot right now.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Do you have a favorite guilty Fast Food Food pleasure Jon Mark?

Jon Mark Hall  
Guilty fast food pleasure. Um, gosh, I love like, I love like, Mexican fast food, which I know is like, I love Moe's and Chipotle and just, you know, that's, that's probably, you know, it's not good for me all the time, but that's, that's that I like those spots. 

Kevin Thomas  
Do you have a book you'd recommend that everyone should be reading?

Jon Mark Hall  
Whoo, that's a good one. So I'd say that my favorite book, and you'd have to be as well. I don't know that you'd have to be a sports person, but obviously would be. So it's a book called loose balls, and it's the history the ABA, the American Basketball Association. It is so good. It is, I mean, it is, I just, it is so good. And that's so, you know, I've, it's a. It's an all time now, again, if you like basketball and sports, it's a little bit better than if you you know then if you don't. But that's I love that book, and I can read it multiple times.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Are you? Are you an early bird or a night owl? Jon Mark, where do you get your energy?

Jon Mark Hall  
Yeah, early bird, for sure. Yeah, my wife's a night owl, but we've made it work, so we're a little different schedules. But yeah, early bird.

Kevin Thomas  
What about a favorite movie or TV series that you can re watch endlessly?

Jon Mark Hall  
Re watch endlessly? I'd say that I'm a I'm a big, these aren't going to be big Modern Family guy. I think I could just watch that. It's a great show. I've really enjoyed Brooklyn nine, nine. I can really watch that a lot, and over and over. And I am at a point in my life, guys, where I just, I want to, I want it to be easy and simple, and I don't want to stress about it, and I want to be entertained, and I don't want to have to figure anything out. So, like, I'm not saying that I won't watch, you know, the crime shows, but I prefer just to laugh a little bit, be entertained and and then and move on. So those are, those are my type of, my type of shows, for sure.

Kevin Thomas  
Good show picks good ones. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Well, Jon Mark, it was great having you on.

Jon Mark Hall  
That was great being here. You guys are a lot of fun and appreciate it. And thanks, you know, thanks for thinking of me. And yeah, wish you the best of luck with this. And, yeah, no, I appreciate you having me. It's been, it's been a blast. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Have a great rest of your year Jon Mark.

Kevin Thomas  
Listen, man. Like, that's fantastic. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
He was great.

Kevin Thomas  
You've gotten in the process to meet some people that that I knew, that worked in higher ed, that you didn't, and I think this is one of the first that that I had not met in and it was great to catch up on just what's happening in his world and and I just think about things from this leadership perspective he's talking about and navigating the waters that are happening in the collegiate athletic world right now, I think you have to have that kind of temperament and that approach and that leadership style that Jon Mark talked about, which is just being relational, being patient, but also having a good direction of where things can go like that was That was wonderful to hear.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I think, you know, when we talk together a lot, we talk, we use the term good dude a lot, and he's just a good dude, right? And, and I think when you, when you, when you come at your work, from that perspective, people notice that right away. And that's one of the things I take and then the constant reminder his story about Steve Newton, right? Like, I'm just reminded about how important real mentors are in our work, right? And it and the little things that sometimes we remember is really important in our journeys as administrators, as professionals. And so I took that from the session right, like, God, that's a great story. And really thinking about how important it is to kind of recognize those folks that that make a make our lives a lot better through their mentorship.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, those little differences. You know, it was one of these things recently, Alex, that works in financial aid for me here at UCA. He said, he goes, he's, you know, I love that you drop by and see how things are going. And I he goes. I just really appreciate that time to get to hear more and learn more and figure out ways that I can get better and all those things. And I was just like, I just feel like I stopped by to say, hey, you know, like, in my mind, like, I'm just being a good human and like, wanting to say hey, and like, see how his days going, but like, he views it as, like, this learning and growth thing, and it was just, it's so kind of just sometimes the intent versus what the impression is are two totally different things. And I love that happens in life.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, and Jon Mark stories are a good reminder of that, right? That story about so we were, we were talking about this the other day on the phone. Let's, let's, let's end here. But this is a good topic. You know, Thanksgiving is coming up right around the corner. I mean, and like, what we got to do our top three. Like, what's your top three Thanksgiving foods? Like an absolute must to make the holiday Kevin, come on.

Kevin Thomas  
All right. So listen this, this is, this is going to be controversial, and it may be more controversial than the Taylor Swift nonsense that we started this, right? I. I don't like turkey. And it's not that I don't like, like, it's fine. It's fine, right? It's okay. But like, when I'm doing my top three here, turkey's not showing up in it. And the reason I rationale is the things that are about to show up are sides and sides are delicious. But if I have these really great sides with something like, give me a steak, right? So I'll just say that before I do any of the turkey stuff. But my top three here, and I'm gonna go with this, and I'm gonna go with who makes it? My mom's sausage rice casserole. Love it like she makes it every Thanksgiving, sometimes Christmas too. My Grandma Thomas's mac and cheese, and it is specific to this, right? Like, it took a really long time to get to this point, but, like, when she passed away, I think the family as a whole thought, oh my gosh, we can't find the recipe. It's never going to work. And now, like, Toni recreated it. And so, like, like, we're at a point where that mac and cheese is is next level. And so I'd say my grandma's mac and cheese and then my wife's green bean casserole. Those are my top three. They are delicious. They're wonderful. And turkey is stupid.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You are terrible. I can't I mean, I could eat turkey for a week afterwards. If you could keep that turkey good, I'd have turkey. Like, my favorite thing is, like, the little Hawaiian rolls and butter and cold turkey the day after Thanksgiving. Like, I can pop, like, five or six of those at breakfast the next day, and I'm like, Yes, this is the greatest thing, but I'm putting turkey or breakfast. Oh yeah, butter, cold turkey in a Hawaiian roll. Like, let's go. Let's go. 

Kevin Thomas  
You're a strange, strange man, I think that's pretty, not strange. Oh, all right, what's, what's the three? Tell me some more deliciousness that we're going to talk about.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So turkey is definitely on the list. But, and I'm going to share like, like, my mom makes chicken and dumplings, and they are next level, right? So it's not really a side, it's like a second main course, but they are great. Okay, I'm there for that. Sometimes you marry into great stuff, like rice stuffing. Catherine's mom and dad that their family made rice stuffing. So I kind of got brought into this. And this rice stuffing is so good, like sage sausage spices. Rice kind of used to cook it in the turkey. But even when you don't do it, you use the chicken broth. Just amazing. And then lemon meringue pie, like, Let's go my mom's lemon meringue pie.

Kevin Thomas  
Fantastic. Those are all good. And I'll say now I'm hungry. I know it, yeah.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And we could talk about what we're thankful for, but we don't have enough time for that. But hopefully, hopefully you're kind of giving thanks as you get into the season here. But that's it for this edition of the pickup meeting, we got to get going right? So we hope your own meetings formal or pickup style, or is it meaningful? 

Kevin Thomas  
Hold on. You can't just go right into it. Listen, man, I'm incredibly thankful for you, my friend, as we hit this holiday season. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Likewise. I mean, we may fight, but we do still love each other.

Kevin Thomas  
We bicker and get along in a passively aggressively way.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So you know, this is the end of the pickup meeting until next time. Right let's do good and be nice. How about that?