Ep. 7 - Marsha Miller, NACADA & Kansas State University

🎙️ “Advising Legends, Dogs, Donuts, and the Energizer Bunny: A Conversation with Marsha Miller”

Get ready for an episode that’s part celebration, part storytelling, and all heart. 🎉 Brody Broshears and Kevin Thomas sit down with NACADA legend Marsha Miller, award-winning author, mentor, and self-proclaimed “genealogical adventurer.” From camping mishaps in the Utah snow to shaping the field of academic advising, Marsha shares decades of wisdom (and a few hilarious stories) that remind us why relationships and not robots, are at the heart of advising.

Expect laughter, inspiration, a dash of donut talk, and a reminder that every great advisor has a little bit of the Energizer Bunny inside. 🐰

*The Pickup Meeting is a spinoff of the Adventures in Advising podcast!

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Transcript

Kevin Thomas  
And away we go. We're back for another episode. Here we are, Brody Broshears. How you doing? Good?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
It's Friday. I'm ready to go. I've had my banana, my cheese stick, my V8 I mean, I'm amped and ready.

Kevin Thomas  
I know right before we record, every time I try to walk a little bit on campus and plug in some music. And today I was listening to some AJR and just getting my head right for the the mood and the conversation and energy. Let's go. Let's do this.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, it's good. It's a great another Friday. I think recording on Friday is fantastic.

Kevin Thomas  
It is another Friday. Looking forward to the weekend already. I also want to say, for our non visual audience, that's not watching on YouTube or any other format, you've got a nice sweatshirt here on with a dog on it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes, we were talking about dogs the other day on our phone. We both have dogs. I've had a dog, or at least one dog, in my house since 1998 you've got a dog scout. I've got a picture of one of my old dogs here, Johnny, who passed away right before I moved to Illinois State. And dogs are amazing. I mean, I'm not really a dog person. My wife is a dog person, so I've had dogs in the house all the time, but, man, they love you so much. How can you not like them?

Kevin Thomas  
I know our dog is great. We have a golden doodle, Scout, and he's just tremendous. And a lot of times when you and I are talking on the phone, I'm on my way to pick them up from doggy daycare, and I feel like that just blows your mind.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
It blows my mind. You have a dog that goes to doggy daycare. You really love that dog.

Kevin Thomas  
He goes at least once or twice a week.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And they take pictures of him and show you updates and tell you when he gets excited about things. Is that, right?

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, I'm literally looking at a piece where a picture, excuse me, where my dog is giving me the side eye. Because you can have them sign up for various picture days at the daycare for the dog. And this one, he is in a Barbie outfit. Because when the Barbie movie came out, I don't know, yep, our for our visual audience, yeah, and it is cool side eye, but you know, like, they have a pool in the back, and it's not like this Walmart pool, like it's a built pool for dogs. But he loves it so much.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
They call and say, Dr. Thomas, Scout's not feeling very good today. You're going to have to pick him up. He ate his food too fast and threw it up. Is that how it works?

Kevin Thomas  
No, I don't know that we've ever gotten a call other than, like, if it's like an accident, like another dog nipped his leg, and so, you know, that type of thing. But really, it's just he goes and has a great time. I call it dog disney world because he just loves it so much. In the morning he runs out and he has a great time. And then at the end of the day he comes home and he crashes, and he's not up in my lap the entire day, saying, pet me. Pet me.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I think we, we always had multiple dogs in the house because they needed playmates, right? Like cats spent a lot of time at home when the girls were in school, and it just was. It just worked out. They've been great companions. I mean, it's brutal. I've had to put a couple of dogs down to, you know, Johnny here, he passed away just at the house. And I think anybody who's loved pets knows that the hardest part about owning a pet is having to put a pet down when that time comes. And, man, I don't like that at all. It's the worst part, but because they love you so much, you just, I can't quit them. That's the thing. I'm sure there'll be another dog in my house before my end. That's, that's for sure.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, and I think it's the, you know, we talk about Friday good energy. There's nothing quite like going home. And no matter what kind of day you've had your dog, and I say cat, I'm not a cat person. I'm allergic they literally would make my neck swell up. But like for me as a dog person, come home, the dog is there and happy no matter what.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, Johnny was a great dude, kind of ugly, but people loved him. He kind of was this facet beagle that had like, a brindle coat, and whenever we took him out, I'm like, this dog is ugly, but he loved people. He was a great walker. Great outside dog. None of my dogs get along with other dogs very well, which sometimes causes problems, but...

Kevin Thomas  
It's kind of like the owner.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I mean, I'm liking people less and less, except for you, Kevin, right.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, that's right. Hey, we're right around the corner here to the Nakata conference and and we you're an award winner. Like, what happened here? You've won the Bobbie Flaherty Service to NACADA award. How does that feel?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Oh, it feels weird, right? Like, I don't know. I think there are a lot more worthy people than myself. I am pretty humbled. I mean, I have to thank you, right? You put together and organized the nomination, and, you know, I just think I got into NACADA in 1999 maybe this is just a longevity award. I've outlasted everybody.

Kevin Thomas  
Anytime you start with I got into NACADA in 1999 my first thought is, how old was I?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
How old were you, Kevin? I was 19. Oh, my God. You were still in college. I had just started college. Yes, yeah. So my first annual conference was in Denver in 1999 No, you know, Kevin, it really is an honor. It was an honor to be nominated. And I'm going to thank all my people at NACADA. I mean, there were so many folks that contributed. I do want to say thank you to all of them now, but I think individually, I'll call them out if I get a chance to speak at the award ceremony.

Kevin Thomas  
But well, hold on at the award ceremony, they've told you you have how long to speak, five minutes. And what are the chances that five minutes occurs?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I think the over under is definitely more than five minutes.

Kevin Thomas  
I think so too. There's zero way I'm gonna time it, because I'll be there, but, like, there's zero way that's happening.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I'm supposed to send them a script, and they don't. They don't understand that's not how I've ever worked, right? Like, ever, I've never scripted anything in my life. I just trying to put you in a box, right? I mean, there's one speech I can remember writing things down. It was for my dad's eulogy, right? Like, and even then, I went off script tons of times. I don't know that I'm going to be able to put together a very good script for this. But, you know, Kevin, when I really seriously reflect services about people, right? And the first thing that I would say is getting involved in NACADA was really just about making sure that could be good at my job, like just learning from other folks presenting, and then I just got addicted to the association and helping others and interacting with others and building great professional relationships and networks. And sure, there's a lot of work that comes with that, but I've loved every minute of it, and so I am really humbled and honored to receive the award, and just so grateful that folks like you who put the nomination together and folks that wrote the letters of support took the time to kind of a, you know, say really nice things about me. I'm not sure I deserve it, but it, it's great.

Kevin Thomas  
And for folks that don't know that are listening, the Bobbie Flaherty service to NACADA award recognizes a member, in this case, Brody, for outstanding service to the organization, and she was NACADA Executive Director for couple decades, and really just influential for leadership stability and fostering the growth of an organization when it was just beginning, and really seeing it to where it is today, which is, I don't know that exact number, but 12-13,000 members large throughout the globe, which is just fantastic. So congrats to you, my friend.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Kevin Thomas  
So I think we're ready to move to our guests. Are you ready?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I'm ready. Let's do it. This is exciting.

Kevin Thomas  
I am excited today. I think we're can both say this. We're honored to be joined by Marsha Miller, Emeritus Assistant Director of resources at NACADA. Over decades of service, Marcia has guided the development of advising literature, co edited foundational text, served as managing editor of the NACADA journal and NACADA review helped shape national standards through the Council of Advancement for the Advancement of Standards in higher education, and more than that, she just a great colleague and friend that Brody and I have gotten to know over our timeframe within the organization. And so we're super pumped to have Marsha Miller here with us today. Welcome Marsha.

Marsha Miller  
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Congratulations, Brody, well deserved.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Thank you, Marsha. Appreciate that so much, absolutely.

Kevin Thomas  
Well, let's not delay the fact that this is now. Well, now there are more award winners on this call than there are not.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
One of these things is not like the other, Kevin. 

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, and it's me. I'm the not non winner in this group. But Marsha, you are also in Las Vegas this October. You are going to be receiving the Virginia and Gordon award for excellence in the field of advising, and that's also one of the big five awards that's that's going to happen. Can you talk a little bit about how. How it feels to be award winner. That's just tremendous,

Marsha Miller  
Gobsmacked. That's what like Brody, I am humbled. I never thought this is possible, because most of my time has been behind the scenes. I've never been the face out there. I mean, Charlie was always the one on the stage, and he is an award winner too, previous Gordon award winner. So I'm just really honored to be in that company.

Kevin Thomas  
When you think about this, you talk about being behind the scenes, and we read a little bit of your bio there. But even in advance of this conversation today, I was telling people who was going to be on the show, and they said, Oh, Marsha Miller on the show. There's this all that comes with the things that you've done over that period of time that I think you probably just say, I just did it. It was my job, it was the role, it was what I was doing, but foundationally, what you've provided NACADA in the advising profession for many, many years is just so powerful. And I don't know that that's always something you can wrap your head around, but as you think back on this journey, did you think you'd be here today?

Marsha Miller  
No, no, I didn't even think I'd be in advising that was not like so many of my generation. I didn't start out to be an advisor. I just kind of backed into it. And all the way through every job I've ever had, I've created somebody had a vision and said we really don't know what this is going to be, and we don't have a lot of details, but here run with it, and Bobby and company gave me that freedom to to run with it, and a lot of challenges along the way. A lot of them met, some of them not met. It's just the way things go. So yeah, I'm pleased to say the least.

Kevin Thomas  
So 18 year old Marsha would not have said, I'm going to end up working for Nakata and work in advising and go down this path.

Marsha Miller  
So I started out teaching eighth grade social studies, of all things. Oh my and yeah, eighth grade social studies. And back in the day, when they were just starting to do testing for special ed, and they had tested a few students. And so the principal gave me a section of the class that he called the jelly jar students. There were any students who had a label, which, by the way, is illegal, yeah. But I, you know, I went back home, and we were renting, Richard and I were renting an apartment from a lady who was the only special ed teacher in the district, and she said they can't do this, number one and number two, you don't have any background, but let's do this. So I wound up, in the end, getting a master's in learning master's degree in learning disabilities, and working in schools, and realizing that it's not about the label, because that's a deficit way of looking at kids. It's about helping them find their strengths and believing in themselves and working with the faculty in the regular classrooms so that they can capitalize on those strengths. So I spent a lot of years doing that, and then we moved to Kansas, and there was a community college here that got a grant for curriculum development, and so I hired on because I thought it would be really interesting, and I've taught a couple of classes, and they said, could you advise? I said, Sure, why not? Yeah, let's do it. So at the end of the first semester, the President calls me into the office, and he hands me a registration form, and he says, our advising system is broken. I'm like, I didn't even know there was a system, but whatever. So he says, I'm sending you this conference, and by the way, I'm appointing you as chair of this, this committee that's going to give us recommendations on how to restructure but at this conference, you're going to learn how to fix advising, and the name on the check was Nakata, and that's how I backed into all of it. And started then with can, which is the Kansas academic advising network, and working with them. And then we, when we restructured, they did an advising center, and one of the parameters was it had to be faculty advisors, because it was in their contract, but it was all manned by faculty advisors. And then down the road, a few years, we won a Program Award. And then one of my mentors at Emporia State University, Fay Val, said, they're coming up with a job at NACADA. They're calling it Research Coordinator. They don't know what they want, but what they want you apply. And I did, and so the rest is kind of history to say the least, but they didn't know. I mean, when I walked in, there were boxes from the clearing house of academic advising resources that have been in Ohio State and Virginia. Gordon had retired, and they had Ohio stated, box everything up and sent him to Nakata, and they wanted me to catalog them and archive them. And I'm like, That's it. That's all you want. They said, Well, you have to start the research committee again. The research committee hasn't been doing much. They said, we really don't know who can do it. And so they explained the job. And I said, Well, I know who can do it. And so I shot him a name. And they said, We don't know that name. I said, let me call him. It was Rich Robbins this. I had worked at rich, when he with rich, when he was at Washburn, we've been on program, program committee together, and then he brought Leigh Shaffer in, and it just steamrolled from there, you know, and I got to work with Virginia, which is another story I'll tell in my five minutes that also is going to go over about how I worked with Virginia. But with professionalization of advising, there was a task force, and that task force changed everything. And then they realized if they were going to have a graduate certificate and academic advising and a grad degree and then eventually a PhD, they were going to have to have a curriculum, which meant writing. And so my job was recruiting authors and bringing those authors to the forefront so we could have something that could be studied.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's amazing. Marsha, I mean, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to that is really awesome. And you did. You managed to cut his pubs for 15 years, right?

Marsha Miller  
Like, let's I did so I met my I've never, I've not seen the nomination, by the way, I know Drew Puroway wrote my nomination, and thank you Drew. But I don't know who else did reference letters. I don't I've not seen any of the materials. So thanks for this opportunity, because now I can pull some of what was going to be in my speech. You need to watch this video for the rest of the speech.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah. So Marsha, what was the most challenging and rewarding part of shaping kind of the NACADA advising library.

Marsha Miller  
Working with the people and a lot like the students that I worked with back when I was teaching the students, which is horrible day. A lot of advisors don't think they can write, they don't think they have anything to contribute, and seeing what was in them. Pat Cate is an example. Pat's when I heard him do his history and theory of advising pre con, I was a region one conference doing writing for NACADA, and he's on the other side of the wall. They're all laughing and having a grand time. Three hours of history and theory of advising, I'm like, how. So when my session was over, I stood in the back of the room and watched and went, Holy moly, this guy's wonderful. And so I started talking to him, and he says, I can't write. And I said, Let's just present together. And so I talked to Rhonda Baker, who was the chair, who was the conference person for annual conference, and I said, just give us an hour of pre con. Make it free. And so I said, I told him, I said, I'm going to sit there and I'm typing everything that you say, and you run it for an hour, and that became the first draft of the chapter that we did together, the new advisor guidebook. I mean, and he's like, I didn't know I had it in me. I said, Yeah, you do. He's He's marvelous. I mean, yeah, shout out to Pat too. 

Kevin Thomas  
I think that what you talk about though, and that intimidation is such a real thing. And I reflect back on knowing I needed to write more, and I still do. That's not anything that I've gotten better at, but I had these conversations with our good colleague and friend, Ashley Thomas, and then Rebecca Hapes and Karen Archambault. We're just name dropping like crazy on this episode, but they are all good people who have been influential and instrumental in the scholarship that's going on at this moment and the writings that are occurring, and they are just such good ambassadors of how to do this and that it is possible and shouldn't be intimidating. But I think a lot of people sit in a similar seat that I sit in Brody, and you don't write a ton, because I think there's an intimidation to it.

Marsha Miller  
Yes, there is an intimidation. And by the act, by the way, Ashley is filling my old shoes, and very, very well. And I think her hand is behind drew writing, would be my guess. But she's, she's marvelous. She does a fantastic job. But people, one of the things I'll tell people is collaborate, find someone who does write and sit down and collaborate. I prefer writing with someone else. I don't prefer trying to write by myself, because I can't critique myself, and I need to find someone who will critique me. The last thing that I really the thing I wrote during covid, Peter Hagen and Julie Givens Voller asked me to write about the history of publications for the review. And I started, and I thought it was going to be really easy, and it turned out not to be easy at all. And I finally hammered out. Something, and I interviewed old journal editors, and I sent it off to several folks who I trust, and they said, Oh, it's wonderful. Send it in. And I'm like, I don't think so. So I finally sent it to my son, who's a speech and debate coach, and who's going to be in Vegas, by the way, and he calls me said, Mom, I thought you could write. Thank you. Thank you. That's exactly what I need to hear. He provided so much. And he we went through and pulled everything out. He said, There's got to be, you know, there was one sentence here, and there's got to be at least a 20 minute story. And so I tell him the story, and then he he'd summarize it one sentence that, in the end, he earned co authorship with it. And he actually advises now, but in a high school situation, I don't think Nakata realizes there's a lot of private high schools around the country that has advisory. He's a faculty advisor at his school and has a load. So yeah, that's you need to find someone who can really be honest with you and caring. And he didn't do that in a malicious way, but he was absolutely correct. It was garbage.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's tough love. Marsha, you mentioned this encouragement. Kevin kind of just echoed this. I think, you know, we start to think about like, I'm not a writer, per se, right? I've always viewed myself as a practitioner. I'm much more comfortable in front of folks. And so I'm an aggregator of stuff, and when I present, like, I'm using a lot of research and a lot of the things that I do, but one of the things that you said, like, Collaborate is really important to me. I think the second thing in some of my happiness research is just start doing it, like just write, and then the writing creates the motivation for more writing, right? That you can't, you can't want to be a writer. You actually have to write. And I, I have found that to be really interesting. And it sounds like that's kind of the approach that you've taken as you've worked with other folks.

Marsha Miller  
Yes, exactly. Yeah. Find somebody collaborate. One of the things I found. One of the people who got me started is Bonnie Alberts, who's retired from, oh man, it's in South Dakota. I can't she's going to kill me because I can't remember the name of it at the moment. But anyway, she basically brought snacks and we spent weekends sitting in my office floor and just writing and having a grand time. And that's how I got started and it works.

Kevin Thomas  
That's amazing. And I think the earlier you can do it and just break down those barriers. I think about this with my son. He's 16 years old, and he just finished a book. He wrote a book, and so people are editing it and going through and putting it together so that it can be a publication at some point. And it's, I don't know this, Kevin, I know, right, it's more, but he's doing it at 16, so what's he going to do at 18 and 20 and 30? You know, like, it's amazing.

Marsha Miller  
The sky's the limit. And don't be afraid of editing. Editing is your friend. Editing things are clear in your head, kind of like Doug did with me. Quick things were clear in my head, but it certainly wasn't clear on the page. And the editing that he provided and the additional input he provided was made the whole thing much better than what it ever would have been had it just been me.

Kevin Thomas  
When you, when you look at where, where we're at right now. What excites you about the next wave of advising scholarship, 

Marsha Miller  
Believe it or not, AI. It's going to change things. I mean it, if we use it correctly. Because AI is going to give you a direction that maybe you didn't see before, but you better be looking at it, because what it tells you isn't always accurate, so you need to go back and do the research and make sure that you're you're okay. But I use AI a lot. I do a lot of genealogy, and I use AI a lot with genealogy, especially translating like German and French, and I, unlike previous guest years, who's fluent in several languages, I'm hardly fluent in English. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, really. But if ai i think is going to make a huge difference. And even down to I said this in one of the committees, I still hop on to a few committees every once in a while, just to shake things up. But, um, I I just really think that AI is going to be able to translate. You're going to people are going to be able it were an international organization, you're going to be able to write in your home language. You're not going to have to write in English. You can write in your home and language and then translate it, and then sit down with someone with English to make sure that the words the AI translates really is what it is. I think it's going to it's going to bring in a lot of new authors too.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And to me, too, the other piece of this is. It allows you to just be more efficient as well, right? That's what I've found in many ways, right? It doesn't automatically do the work for me, but it does take care of the things that maybe take a lot of time, that aren't, aren't necessary for me to really focus in on and be able to focus in on the more important things.

Marsha Miller  
You do have to say, however, what tool you used? I think, number one, it is a tool, and I think it helps others to realize those tools are out there. But you can't say I just came up with all this on my own, because you just have some help. You need to give some credit, which is different than what people use.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
No, that is true. There's no question about that. So, Marsha, I know you've represented NACADA , say, for example, on the CAS board, right, that and the CAS standards, right? Which part of that work felt most impactful to the academic advising field?

Marsha Miller  
Actually, the last thing I did for CAS was I chaired the general standards. And their general standards were higgledy, piggly all over everywhere and like pages and pages and pages, and they weren't organized. And so pulled together a group of people, and we just sit down and said, everything's off the table. Let's, let's organize this. And in doing that, cast is very student affairs in it, and they didn't understand that academic advising. There's one foot in student affairs and one foot in academic affairs, and we really are the integration between those two areas. And I think doing that number one and help them organize, and help people who utilize the cast standards realize that they are a viable tool, but also help the whole organization understand that academic advising is a little bit different animal, and it really can be a field unto itself. And that's something this award, the Virginia Gordon award, says in the field of academic advising, which thrills me to pieces, because most people would not think of academic advising as a field, and I'm not sure we're quite there yet, but it's aspirational. And so when Tom crites and Julie Givans Voller and I sit down in 14 to talk about the beyond Foundations book, we talk about, are we talking about advising as a profession? Are we just talking about it as a practice? And we decided all through the book, we were going to say field, because we really think we are a field, and we're getting there so that everyone else in higher ed can understand that and embrace it.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, and I think it's really powerful that what you're talking about from a wordsmith standpoint, what is it as a profession? Is it a field and being purposeful in that I think again, when we talk about how words matter. We're setting a standard for where we're going as a field. And I think that's really influential. I appreciate you sharing that. So listen, this is going to be maybe more for the audience than anybody else, but, and I have not been but what's it like to work in the executive office and like, What's one thing we need to know about working in for what Brody and I have affectionately termed the mothership, and that you're there and you're in that. Because I think people view it as this mecca of advising an existence, and people just don't know.

Marsha Miller  
So I showed up the first day in a suit, because I thought, okay, yeah, same thing you thought. The executive office is down and dirty. The you better have, you better have running shoes and jeans or sweats on. Let me tell you, it is, it is, let's go. And you need to be able to juggle many things at the same time. And it is not what I thought it was by any stretch of the imagination. And it comes at you fast, and it comes at you hard. And when you have 12,13, 14,000, members, however many members there are in NACADA everyone has a different opinion, a different perspective and a different voice, and you better listen to all of them. So there's a lot going on.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You know, Kevin, you said you've never been to Kansas State.

Kevin Thomas  
I've never been so I was on the board, but I it was during covid, and so we did virtual.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I was a part of that group, Marsha, right at the middle of 2000 10s, where they brought the council and the board every year for the spring meeting to to Manhattan, Kansas. And those four or five years, I got to go. I hopped on the council the first year they did it, and they decided they were going to ask the council and the board to go. And I freaking loved Manhattan. And then, you know, the the new office was built, and we got to, we got a chance to tour that. But my really important question is, like varsity donuts, do you have a Larry? Is Larry your favorite? I mean, the Larry is a fantastic donut, right? Marsha, I mean, you cannot go wrong like I look forward to that visit every year, not because I got to see my colleagues or do the good work of academic advising. For NACADA, but because I got to go every morning to varsity donuts and have a Larry. And it Larry was like this, peanut butter and jelly, knotted donut with peanut butter on top, jelly in the middle, nuts. It was fantastic. 

Marsha Miller  
I allow myself varsity units once a year, because if I went every morning, I would have to be in the pool every single day. Because, let me tell you, those things are extremely fattening. There's a make maple bacon, one which I don't know the name of, that is just wonderful. And yeah, but no, Varsity donuts is a treat that just every once in a while. Yeah, if you were here every day you would be, you know, 400 pounds.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I got lost in the varsity donuts there. Thanks Kevin for letting me rant there for a second.

Kevin Thomas  
I really, I really think that we've moved from this podcast being about higher education and this has become a trend where we just talk about donuts. Yeah, and that's what it is. It's several episodes running now, but we've figured out a way to bring donuts in again.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Sorry, Marsha I can, I can bring us back maybe. Okay, this is a big, broad question, but I do think it's important, right? And that is, where do you see advising as a profession headed in the next decade?

Marsha Miller  
I don't know that you can predict it. Yeah, I mean, I really don't know you can predict it. There's so many influences going on. Every once in a while, somebody else will send the sound the death meal for advising. I think the Gates Foundation did that back in 2013, they thought that it was advising was going to be replaced by computers, and then they realized I actually got to go. They they sent me a ticket in the mail. I get an airline ticket from the Gates Foundation. I'm like, Is this a joke? To just wander through their convening, and then they sit down and debrief committee. And I'm like, You're You're crazy, if it the tool that they were working on, and that's what all it was, is a tool. It's the people that make the difference. It the people see the what can happen with the students and what each student brings to the table, and they see what they're capable of doing. It's not going to be a tool. And so as long as we still focus on the people doing it, and this is a tool. I mean, an AI is a tool. If we still focus on the people advising, is going to be stronger than ever, because that's what that's what we need, is the human touch.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, students want human compassion. Absolutely, there's no question about that.

Marsha Miller  
Yes, and I hope that the higher ed administrators out there realize that.

Kevin Thomas  
I look back at the journey that we've been on, or the even that I've been on, and when I was at Western Kentucky University and we were getting a degree audit tool, the panic from advisors that this is going to take my job, right? And, you know, flash forward a few years later, and a good friend and colleague of mine, Tyler Phelps, was doing his dissertation, and was essentially doing it on asynchronous advising that he termed cloud advising, and and then. But we talked about a lot about what's the relationship still mean in that. But even then, that was kind of transformational that you would be advising on the cloud, and then covid hit and changed everything as well. But I think the common theme there is that technology and all of the things that are surrounding it are really great AI is going to be helpful in a lot of ways. The relationship is going to be the key in advising. And if you're not doing that, you're not communicating, you're not having that, it's really going to be a detriment to the field.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes, yeah, I know Kevin, like I was on a panel yesterday, and one of the things that we talked about is how the tools have changed, right? The technology has changed the work of advising. And I think as long as we're as long as we're comfortable with the idea that that tech complements our work rather than replaces our work, we're going to be okay, right? I do really believe that. I mean, and my the challenge I run into is when we when we talk to other advisors, or when I hear folks talk about training and development. We talked to Dana about this a little bit. We we sometimes think the information is the most important part, and that's where the tools are going to be really helpful to us, and students are going to get more comfortable, but what they want is guidance. What they want is to know that somebody cares about them. What they want is someone who helps them feel like they belong in this space, at their institutions. And I think that's the real power of the work that we're doing in academic advising.

Marsha Miller  
Yes, and that will continue to be the power, which is why I think advising has a rich future ahead of it, because you're not going to replace that with AI.

Kevin Thomas  
Marsha, you talk about the role that administrators have in this. And so Brody talks a little bit about how advisors. Advisors often will focus, and I think administrators that are powerful in their approach also have this on being student centered. But do you have some guidance or thoughts on how advisors balance being student centered with the increasing institutional pressure and demand for all other things, whether that's enrollment and support and counseling, and I think there's bits of advising and all of that, but just how do they stay student centered in what they need to do?

Marsha Miller  
That is hard, and that was that was difficult for me personally, when, back when I was director of academic advising, it was 65-70 hour weeks, and I didn't understand the balance and that it, I think it's really important for all advisors to understand the balance and take time for themselves, for their health, for their exercise, and always, always talk in terms of what's best for the student, and talking with administrators, they give it's easy to get into budget issues and technology issues and all the things that really don't matter to students. So if you're if you go to in into any meeting with student being the focus, I think it's going to come out better.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah. And when we talk about the happiness and meaning making for both advisors and administrators, I think serving others is generally a happiness drug, right? And so, you know, I think that if we can help advisors, sure, there are lots of pressures, I know that I have to focus and Kevin, I know in your role, you're focusing on retention and enrollment numbers, graduation rates, those are things that I can worry about. But at the end of the day, if I'm in the front line, doing the work as an academic advisor, as long as I put the student that's in front of me first and foremost, I think generally, I'm going to be happier in my role, too, right? And more productive.

Marsha Miller  
I think so too. The other thing with a student is we do focus so much on, you know, what do you need to do graduate and what? You know, the deficits that you have? It's, it's, what are your strengths? And that's long before there was strength based advising, but especially when I was dealing with students who had a label and all they saw themselves as a label. If you start thinking about you know, what is it, where do you see yourself five years down the road? What is it you want to do? Where do you want to be? What do you bring to the table? It's a totally different focus for them. It's a perspective that I'm not they're not getting anywhere else, and they need to get it from their advisor. 

Kevin Thomas  
So we're going to move to a little bit more of some fun questions. We'll see where we go here.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
But Kevin, I was already having fun. 

Kevin Thomas  
Yes, we were all having fun. That's a good point. Just making the questions a little more...

Marsha Miller  
This is the part that I've been a little bit worried about after watching your...

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I think, I think you've been on, you've been with us now long enough to know that none of this is tricky. We're just having some fun.

Kevin Thomas  
So, so we know that you have a great affinity for the camping life. What's been your most, most uh oh moment while camping?

Marsha Miller  
I was most oh moment while camping was after the 2002 conference in Salt Lake City. We had always tent camped because that was what my husband enjoyed. Because, you know, he's an outdoor guy, and so he came out and he brought the tent, and we're talking October in the mountains in Utah, and it snowed, and I had to get up and run to the bathroom half mile away. Oh, no. Oh, I said, that is it, but it's the last time I'm sleeping on the ground. If you're going to camp, you're going to get a camper. I'm going to have a bathroom right here, and I'm going to have a warm bed. That's it. That was my aha moment. And we do have a camper. And yes, it is nice.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's a great story. Way to leverage snow into a camper, Marsha. The last time I slept in a tent was 2006 and essentially, it rained for, I don't know, four or five inches the night that I was there, and there was a literal lake of water rolling underneath the tent. And I'm like, I'm never doing this again. That's me, Kevin, my camping. I love the outdoors. I love to hike. I end at a hotel with Wi Fi and breakfast and a TV that's the way it works for me. That's camping in a nutshell. And I'm happy to visit a campsite, right? Like March I'm I would come to your campsite and happily eat the food and and do all the songs, whatever that is, but then I'm going back to a hotel.

Marsha Miller  
Well, we usually camp several times during the summer, and this year has been crazy. We just finally got out last week and we booked three nights, and then they were predicting three and a half inches. And like you, I have taken down tents and the camper and deluge. I said we're not doing it after two nights. We've had two beautiful sunsets, we've had campfires, we've done the marshmallows. We're going home, because we're not doing this in three and a half inches, right? So we went home.

Kevin Thomas  
Brody, she said a lot of things, but she didn't say the song. So now I'm really curious, like, what songs are you singing while you can't my man.

Marsha Miller  
We are we don't sing that much. Because my husband is a singer. He was singing in college choruses. I am not a singer. If he wants to sing in me, that's great, but he doesn't want me to sing to him.

Kevin Thomas  
Brody, do you want to sing for us? We can. It's a whole new show. We could just do that too. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I mean, I used my mom sang in this church group, right? And my mom still sings at church. She sings at the Catholic church that I grew up in, and she's maybe the most Catholic person I've ever met, but this Catholic music group would get together in the summers, and they I remember having a fire in the backyard I was a teenager, and I sang all those 80 songs. My voice was a lot higher, but like I remember one of my one of my mom's friend's sons, played the guitar and we sang like Don Henley's the summer songs Brian Adams summer of 69 like a Chicago maybe you're the inspiration or hard habit to break. I think I sang that at a talent show too.

Kevin Thomas  
Oh god, man, your voice was higher. It was higher. You, Marsha, you also have some genealogy adventures, yeah, so we're curious what's the most surprising or funny thing you've uncovered while tracing your family tree?

Marsha Miller  
That's that's a tough one. There's a lot of my we didn't know a lot about my especially my dad. My dad was the youngest. His dad was the youngest of 18, Oh, yes. And well, on his own from the time he was 12, because they were gone by then. And so we, my dad wanted to know, you know, where he came from. And that was interesting. He used to my dad's name. My maiden name is Hayslett, H, A, y, s, l, e, t, t, you always have to spell it. And so dad was lb Hayslett. He would always look in the phone book anywhere we went for lb Hazlett, and he found an LB Hayslett in Virginia, in Newport News, and he called him, and the guy said, Yeah, I'm sure we're related. Yeah, has to be. And his dad was there, and his dad's name was Ben, and my granddad's name was Ben, they came and brought lawn chairs to the motel that was on the beach and talked until sun rose and dad found out, yes, he did belong to that family. And incredible. Yeah, it is incredible. And I wish I was like, 14 at the time, and I stayed up until two, and then I couldn't stay up any longer. And I wish there had been a way to to tape it, video it back then, because I would love to go back and revisit that conversation. It, yeah, it made a huge difference. And it opened up. And, you know, now I realize I'm related to almost everybody in one county in Virginia. Had no idea.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Then I've done some, I've done some brief genealogy work, and it's like a drug, like you get addicted once you get into that hole. Man, you're never stopping. It's crazy.

Marsha Miller  
So I don't call myself a genealogist, because most of them are certified, and I'm I don't want to go that route. I I'm the British call it gene log, and I do that for cousins, and I help them out as they have questions. And DNA has made a huge difference, being able to compare how much DNA people share. And so, yeah, it is addictive, and every once in a while I have to take a break and just shut it off for a while and then come back to it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Kevin, do you have anything? Have you done any genealogy stuff your family or anything?

Kevin Thomas  
My father does a lot, and he's he's gone down that path a lot, on both sides and just checking out things. And so he'll share those stories. But I don't know that I've would say any. I feel like our surprise, but he spends more time with it. And when we were in Salt Lake a couple times for some conferences, to be able to go use the services they have there to do some of that was was really surprising, just and just what you can see and what's out there.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I think the one thing that really surprised me, on my mom's side. I've got a kind of this distant uncle, I guess, and he's been able to get my mom's side back to, like, the 1490s and I'm like, how is that awesome? How's that possible? 

Marsha Miller  
Not really DNA, unless you use y DNA and that that will go back, you know, son, to. Father to grandfather, but yeah, the autosomal will not.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So Marsha, we we always talk about like movement and the way folks stay active. Both Kevin and I really love exercise, or at least our steps. We're addicted to our steps. So what's your what's your activity of choice, Marsha.

Marsha Miller  
So as you can imagine, working at the executive office as many hours as they put in, my body pretty much fell apart by the time I was retired in 2019 and I had foot surgery and one of at Arrowhead Stadium, of all places, because they have the equipment at University of Kansas Medical Center does the sports medicine for arrowhead, and the doctor, who was a long Hunter for the Chiefs at one time, said the best thing to do is deep water aerobics a belt and get started, and don't put any weight On on it. And I've been doing it since I do it two to three times a week. And it's wonderful. It, yeah, changed. Totally changed my outlook. Totally changed my body. Things don't hurt the way they used to. It's good.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's great. Yeah, let's move to the lightning round. I think that's great.

Marsha Miller  
Okay, you thought this was it?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You've done fantastic. Now we're really into it, all right? You want to get the first one? Let's do it.

Kevin Thomas  
What's your favorite podcast or audio book right? 

Marsha Miller  
I have hearing aids, which is why we're because I actually couldn't hear and I don't listen to things, um, that much. And my family yesterday, everyone of them, both my kids, called me, and my husband said, You need to start with that, as you don't hear. But with this, I hear, and maybe I should listen more and slap these on. But it's hard to walk around and, you know, in public with these on, I just my Princess Leia look.

Kevin Thomas  
It's a great Princess Leia look.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Coffee, tea or soda for your daily fuel?

Marsha Miller  
Coffee in the morning, tea in the afternoon. Never soda. Decaf tea. Decaf tea.

Kevin Thomas  
You do a lot of road tripping and travel. Uh, what's your go to snack?

Marsha Miller  
Oh, and I shouldn't, there's these Nature Valley Peanut Butter Granola things that are granola bar with peanut butter in it. I They're on Amazon. They I just get it every month that comes in a box.

Kevin Thomas  
She knows how. She didn't say donuts. Brody.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I know it.

Marsha Miller  
I tell myself it's better than a donut because there's, you know, oats in there and peanut butter, which is protein, but it's still a lot of sugar.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Do you have a favorite board game or card game, Marsha?

Marsha Miller  
Clue used to be I've beat anybody in clue. I had an aunt one time that swore up and down. I cheated and threw the board at me.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
It's good to get so it's good to get so good at a game that people throw stuff at you.

Marsha Miller  
I love the problem is now we play it at Christmas, when everybody's here and my kids just wipe me off the board. I beat them last year we we went to New Orleans for Thanksgiving and did an Airbnb there, and I beat them again, and it was like, Yes, we're stopping right here.

Kevin Thomas  
What's a song that always puts you in a good mood?

Marsha Miller  
Born to be Wild, which is not me in any way, shape or form, but yeah, if I want to get psyched for something, that's my song.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Do you have an all time favorite TV show or movie?

Marsha Miller  
I don't know. I know I I like Finding Your Roots, because you know the genie piece. But as far as a show, I love quiet man with the irate because there's some Irish roots on my side. Oh yeah, too. And then the Americanized version of it, with the same actors, with John Wayne and O'Hare McClintock, which I think is funnier than Heck, yeah, and totally inappropriate, but I laugh all the way through it.

Kevin Thomas  
Alright? I think this is our last one. We're running a little short on time, but if advising had a mascot, what should it be?

Marsha Miller  
The Energizer Bunny.

Kevin Thomas  
Advisors that are listening throughout are cheering for that one, because they have to have those batteries to keep going. This has been great. 

Marsha Miller  
I've been worried about this and what you're gonna throw at me, but it's gone really well. So anybody who wants to do this, yes, do it.

Kevin Thomas  
That's right, pick up meeting. You never know what's coming. So we got to make sure that we keep you on your toes. Thank you.

Marsha Miller  
I appreciate the opportunity. And again, congratulations, Brody. Yeah, congratulations. We'll see you in Vegas.

Kevin Thomas  
How fantastic was Marsha Miller?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I had so much fun. She was great. Kevin, just great. What insight.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, and it's really, uh, one of the things she said very early on, and I think in our current environment, right now, politically and what we're balancing on on our campuses, of it's not about the label, you know she talked about, is about what you were providing. It's about the relationship. It's about the works. And that really stuck with me today, that regardless of what words we should or shouldn't be using, that if you focus on the purpose, which is supporting students, helping students, guide students, then we're doing our jobs.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I feel like I've been guilted into being a writer again, right? And writing, that was my takeaway. Just write correct. You know, like you got to get at it collaborate, maybe you and I should be writing. That's the way I was thinking about it. But Doggone it. Yeah? I mean, she's a superstar, right?

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, there are very few advising texts, student success texts that you can pick up that aren't going to have something that she's mentioned in. Yeah, her hands and her words are everywhere. It really is. It really is an honor to get a chance to speak with her and talk to her about all that she's done for the association. And I'm excited for both of you being award winners and connecting with you here in a couple of weeks in Vegas. And really, you know, we've transitioned to full fall here. So I'm curious, as we wrap things up, do you have fall rituals that are yours? Like, do you do this thing every fall? 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I mean, I do really enjoy football a lot, but I'm more of an NFL guy than college guy, like one of my favorite things in the fall, I'm a huge English Premier League fan, and the favorite part of my Saturday is waking up about 615 620 getting my coffee and turning that first English Premier League game on, that starts at 6:30 and just spending The first half, kind of enjoying the morning. Usually, my cats and dogs have been fed. It's a great ritual for the fall, right? Get the start of that soccer season is really fun.

Kevin Thomas  
How about you, man, I I'm not a coffee person. Again. Never had it and but so the the pumpkin spice doesn't do much for me. It's not one of those things. It's more in my wife's world where I'm going to pick, pick up her pumpkin spice drinks, and know that she's going to have a lot of those things around the house, but I, you know, I think for me, it's the weather changing and the decorations around town and different things, that's just it's kind of nice to get into that fall. Cooler weather, different look, not sweltering hot. Everywhere you go in Arkansas, it stays pretty hot anyway, but, you know, I think, I don't know that's a trend, but you know when, when the drinks switch, and you can start to tell the colors are changing. We're walking on campus here recently, and we're surprised at how early the trees were turning this year. And it's just that's just, it's kind of a beautiful thing, and it reminds you of that, just that fall feeling that you've had all through life.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Kevin, I know you and I were chatting the other day on the phone, and one of the things that we were talking about, and Marsha used the word collaboration, and I think this is really something I wanted to kind of end on today was just thinking about the people that reach you, reach out to and connect with right throughout the time, and how important those networks are. I feel so lucky to kind of be able to chat with you every couple of days or two or three times a week, and just how important those relationships have been to me. And I think even Marcia using that word collaboration in the writing and that writing piece kind of just reminded me, and I want to share this with folks, is you gotta, you gotta talk to the people you care about, right, reaching out and checking in with folks, your Nakata peeps, your your friends, the people that you care about most, and I'm getting a little corny, but like, you know, being able to make sure, like folks like Dave and Kerry Kincanon, and you Kevin Thomas, people that I reach out to and chat with, I'm just so grateful for those friendships, and I think it's one of the reasons why this podcast exists. But I was thinking about that when she used the word collaboration and working together. But being together with the folks you care about, and chatting with them is really important too.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, and this show has really been wonderful. It's so great to hear, whether that's emails or texts or whatever, from folks, and just, it's kind of exciting to hear. Oh, well, you know, my favorite episode has been this one, or my favorite episodes been that one, and it's just. You have favorite episodes. And I was talking to Stephanie Kraft-Terry last night, and she sent me a picture of our podcast on her on her screen in her car, and it says, you know, with with Brody and Kevin, and then her daughter gets in the car. And I guess I had sent her a text at the same time, and she said, the guy who's on the podcast is sending you text messages. Her mind was blown. This has just been such a fun journey of connecting with folks along the way. Yeah, well, you better wrap things up for us today.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, so friends, that's it for this edition of the pickup meeting. We hope all your regular meetings are as productive as fun as this pickup meeting. So until next time, do good. Be nice. Thanks, gang for listening.