Ep. 5 - Todd Burrell, University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign

⚾🍩 From Cardinals heartbreaks to donut debates, Kevin and Brody kick off this episode of The Pickup Meeting with laughter and plenty of sugar cravings. Then they’re joined by Todd Burrell, longtime admissions leader turned University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign regional rep, for a first-ever podcast appearance you won’t forget.

Todd shares his journey as a first-gen student, his decades of leadership in admissions, and why saying yes to opportunities has shaped his career (and can shape yours, too). Along the way, you’ll hear about professional development wisdom, the quirks of Illinois mascots, and what keeps Todd energized after 30 years in higher ed.

It’s equal parts heartfelt, hilarious, and inspiring...exactly what you’d want from a pickup meeting!

*The Pickup Meeting is a spinoff of the Adventures in Advising podcast!

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Transcript

Kevin Thomas  
And away we go. Welcome back to another episode of The Pickup Meeting. Here we are. How you doing? Brody, doing great. How about a meeting? I'm good the pickup meeting with Kevin and Brody. We, I forget that we maybe don't introduce ourselves, but if people are listening, it's, it's on the placard that you're listening on. So I hope you're checking that out. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah. Or what should it be? Brody and Kevin? 

Kevin Thomas  
It probably is Brody and Kevin. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
is because we read left to we read left to right on the picture right. It's my head on the left and your mug on the right.

Kevin Thomas  
Two good looking guys. What are you gonna do about this? So good looking that we just put silhouettes on our image? 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I did radio for so long, and they told me I had a face for radio. I always thought that was kind of mean.

Kevin Thomas  
So, here we are. It's Listen, we have to admit that we are massive sports fans, massive sports fans in and we have a guest today that I think is also a massive sports fan. But before we bring him on, I wanted to get into this just a little bit that I'm so tired. We're both Cardinal fans, massive Cardinal fans, and I have to say, I probably have it a little easier now that I'm in Arkansas that I don't get as much of the cardinal cubs banter. But what is happening right now? You know, the Cardinals are terrible, and you're in Cardinal cub territory. How are you surviving and handling this, with the Cubs being pretty decent for being a Cubs team and and then being a Cardinals fan in that in that area.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
It's unpleasant. To be fair, I would say that the mixture of cardinals Cubs fans here in central Illinois has surprised me. There are lots of Cardinals fans, so there are folks to commiserate with. So that's nice, and we kind of forget about the White Sox, which, you know, when I lived in DeKalb in the early 2000s I kind of adopted the White Sox as my American League team, and they're still terrible, even after winning the World Series in 2005 they've not been good since then, I don't think, at least not to the World Series and and, but they've got a young guy that's playing shortstop now, that's from my neck of the woods, and I've kind of started to watch them now, and it's been fun watching him be really Good. Colson Montgomery is his name. He's playing shortstop. But and we're spoiled as Cardinals fans. Let's be honest, the last 25 years have been pretty good. I mean, come on.

Kevin Thomas  
Oh, we're, for sure, spoiled. I And that's the thing, you kind of have to take it with a grain of salt that you're spoiled. For fans of other teams, when I've talked to them, they, moment they find out you're a cardinal fan, they always say, I don't wanna hear anything until you haven't been to the playoffs or a World Series in like, 10 years. And it's like, well, we're getting closer to that. We've been pretty bad, but hopefully better days are ahead. I just I can't help but think in this timeframe is fall approaches and the playoffs are coming in the World Series there that there should be some really great times for Cardinal fans. And we have really great memories of this time frame. But it's just bad. You know what's not bad, though? What's not bad? Donuts. Donuts make everything better. Do you like that transition?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I do. It was fantastic. Donuts do make everything better. Kevin, you sent me something about Krispy Kreme doing this special donut with Harry Potter. Like, is that right?

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, and you are a very vocal Harry Potter hater. We actually lost listeners from from your Harry Potter hate. But what's happening, I think, at this moment in Krispy Kreme, is you can go and get donuts that are for each of the houses of Harry Potter, yes, and then they have, oh, and it's a sorting hat that you cut into, and it's got some kind of filling that is the color of what your house is. And it just leaves me with this thought that donuts are great, and there's really not a bad donut. And I think you embrace that in your life, that donuts are great. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Everything you said there, I did not understand, except that the donuts have filling in them, and that's good. Donuts should have filling in them, like, I'm like, my favorite donut is the cherry Bismarck from donut bank in my hometown, or the lemon Bismarck here at Grove Street bakery, which is about 90 seconds from my house, which is very dangerous, but Kevin, did you know growing up in high school, my nickname. And I had lots of nicknames, but one I really liked was, let's get to the lots of nicknames first. No, well, we're gonna talk about though, no, the donut man. I was the donut man. I worked for the yearbook. And the last two years I worked for the yearbook, the only fundraising we did was every Tuesday and Thursday morning, I bought six dozen glazed donuts from the donut bank and six dozen chocolate long johns from the donut bank, and I brought them to the cafeteria and sold them before school. 

Kevin Thomas  
See, I remember this story, but in my mind I had it that you were like fundraising for your own efforts. Like this was gas bank, right? The donut guy was just raising some gas funds.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, for the Chevy Chevette, the 1981 Chevy Chevette four door. That was the car I was driving.

Kevin Thomas  
You know, I was thinking back to the annual conference for NACADA that we attended. And pre the conference getting going, we went on the donut tour. Oh, you remember this.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
It was so great. I was one of my favorite NACADA conference memories. Was that Portland 2022?

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, but it was Portland, and the donut experience was magical. It was so good. I I'm just now, I'm lost in it, and our guest is really going to struggle to overcome the fact that we're this hungry and only talking about donuts. Yeah, let's be honest. Donuts are amazing. They are, they are. All right, we ready to get rolling. Let's do it. I didn't know if you wanted to, like, try to sell our audience any donuts and do some fundraising. Now I'm good. All right, I'm super excited. We have a guest that's with us today. We're joined by Todd Burrell, regional representative for the University of Illinois, Urbana Champaign. Todd's been in the leader in the admissions and enrollment world for more than 20 years. We're not going to go any further than that, because then you can start to like, guess ages serving in various leadership roles. He's a recognized statewide leader for servant leadership, advocate for students, families and the profession of admissions. Welcome. Todd Burrell, welcome.

Todd Burrell  
Thank you, Kevin and thank you, Brody. Great to be here and looking forward to this. This is my first ever podcast, so I haven't done this before, so bear with me as I hopefully I can contribute and have some fun. Um, definitely, based upon the intro, it's going to be a lot of fun.

Kevin Thomas  
That's great. So is this whole first ever experience? Is there some nerves to this experience?

Todd Burrell  
Yes, there really is, there's, like, technology. Hopefully it works, because, you know, that's not my expertise. And then I'm like, gosh, what am I going to say? And and listening to podcasts before I'm like, How do I follow this? How do I follow you all, and then the individuals that you've had on? So, yeah, hopefully I can, I can contribute, but I do tell you this, I feel like I'm gonna have a lot of fun.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You've put a lot of pressure on yourself. It's just a pickup meeting. My man. We're just having a conversation. This is going to be fantastic.

Todd Burrell  
It will be I'm ready. I'm looking forward to it. I love pickup meetings some days, sometimes in life, when I when I was in my other roles, and you'd walk through as, as I heard you say in a previous one, is Starbucks, and that would be the pickup meeting. I'd be like, Oh, maybe I'll just avoid coffee today.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
don't the pickup meeting gone bad. Like, we haven't talked about that. Kevin, that that's a good topic for sure.

Todd Burrell  
How's the numbers? Oh, I don't want to talk about those. Oh, your students doing good.

Kevin Thomas  
All of a sudden you become a tea person or a vending machine person. I'm not going to Starbucks today. Yeah, no more pickup meetings. So Todd, you know, we mentioned, you know, aspects of a illustrious career where you've done a lot of really wonderful things. And when you think back on your journey here, like think back to as many students are this fall, beginning a college journey as that 17, 1819, year old, when we go back to 17, 1819, year old, Todd, what did you think we were like? Could you imagine that this was going to be your career, where you were a director of admissions, an institution, you're helping students recruit. Like, how did we get here?

Todd Burrell  
Yeah, it What? What a journey. And I will say this, I feel so fortunate in my career to have had the opportunity to do what I have done, and have had the mentors that have helped me out in my many roles. I can't there's nowhere to begin to name them all. But when I was 1718, I always was here. I was thinking about this, you know, before coming on, thinking, what, what can I share? What can I talk about? I was a first gen student. I didn't even know what first gen meant. You know, back then, 1988, Graduated from high school. So there you go. There's my age. And I was like, at first gen. Didn't know it, but I knew I was the first in my family to go. Now I will tell you, my parents are awesome. They they did not go to college, but they pushed education and said, continue what you want to do, whether that be a two year, four year, technical, do something, and I really appreciate that. So they were very smart, even though they didn't go to college. And so I wanted to go to college. Now I wanted a four year. And I had that vision of, I really wanted to get away from my hometown. I grew up in a small town. Love my hometown, but wanted to get away. And now that was the vision of 1012, hours. Well, I was a much, very much an introvert, so I don't at that time. So I was like, That's too far, because if I need to get back home, I should probably limit that. So about two to four hours. And so I looked at my choices, and I applied to a local university near where I'm from, and I applied to another institution that I ended up working for for many years. And then I applied to a small private and then a local community college. I did four applications. I remember it, and I really wanted to go the small private, long story short, in the end, it worked out, but not after much struggle and really waiting to see if that total financial aid package was there and the cost was going to be relevant for what I could do and for my family, because my mom and dad said, You're the oldest of four. We can't spend all of our money on one you. We got three others. 

Kevin Thomas  
that was said, I'm first right now.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Exactly that was exactly my situation, too for and my folks basically said we got you for one year, and then after that look.

Kevin Thomas  
We got the doctor coming behind you, yeah?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Doctor, right? Somebody that helps people, actually.

Todd Burrell  
No, it was so true. So, so I remember this, I went to, you know, the college reps, and this is what I do want to do it later today. And then this, this fall again, you go to the high school and you visit with students. A rep came from the institution that I went to, and I wanted to go there. And so I back then again, no internet, no online application, and filled out, brought the application home. I had to go to work right away, so I laid it out in a table, and then I went to work, came back home, I was gonna fill it out, and I couldn't find it, and I was like, well, where'd this go? So next morning, I asked my mom and dad, did you do something with my application? Said we threw it away that school is going to be too much for you, and I'll never forget that. And they were right. We didn't know at the time, but when you see the cost, it's just like, that's not going to happen. How are we going to make that affordable? And not understanding financial aid and scholarships? Again, in the end, it worked out, and we were, I was very happy. I was very excited to be going there, and it was a wonderful four years. And it really was the beginning of then the admissions career, not knowing again, that 1718, year old that was going to end up going to college. I knew I wanted to. Didn't know where four years of great experience that then led into the admissions career that I started in 92 I looked this up because I was like, I know the date, June 22 of 1992 was my first ever admissions day, and since then, I've only been off besides your holidays and your sick days, but I don't and and I only been off two weeks. And I did that before I took this current role here at the U of I I took two weeks off before I started my new job. But other than that, I went from a Friday right into a Monday job, and so it's been awesome and a great career, and I just feel so fortunate and thankful for the many people that helped me out along there, and all the opportunities I've been given.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's great. Todd, you know, we've looked at your materials, right? You've served in a lot of leadership roles across Illinois, Missouri, nationally, what originally drew you to admissions work and what keeps you passionate today?

Todd Burrell  
Oh my gosh, I think it's the same thing that drew a lot of people to admissions work. It didn't didn't quite know what I wanted to do, and I had to go to my career counselor, you know, the one that they say don't come to me in the senior year, second semester, when you're looking for a job. Well, I did. That's what I did. And in a hole, you shouldn't do that, but I did. And they're like, Well, you really like this school, right? And I'm like, yeah, they said, well, admissions might have some openings. Why don't you do an intern or go talk to them and see if you can volunteer? And that's what I did. I volunteered, I I didn't get paid. I did tours, and I did work within the admissions office. My senior year, second semester, I wish I would have gotten involved much sooner my college career, I enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it, and it was just volunteer, but it was a lot of fun giving tours and doing that. And I realized this. Could be something I want to do. Well, then an opening came up, a couple openings, and I was just really fortunate that I got offered a job the day before graduation so I could tell my family see it paid off. Now, in admissions, my mom and dad were not quite understanding, because, you know, I went to a private school, sure, and in college admissions, you know it the pay has always discussed. In higher ed, the pay is always discussed. And my mom, dad looked me, said, you went to school for this, and they didn't quite understand what I was going to do. Like, what are you going to do, and your pay is going to be this. I said, Mom, I remember on graduation, because we had a discussion before I graduated, like, this is what I want to do, and I gotta stay in the community that I really enjoyed being in for the past four years, and that was just awesome. And then again, who would have thought though at that first job that I started at that yes, the pay wasn't that great, but I loved it, and I really wanted to just continue to do it, that I would have had the chance to go on and do the many positions that I have at now that the fourth institution that I've been at, it's just all the places I've been at, I will talk very positively about and just and have enjoyed each and every one.

Kevin Thomas  
The interesting thing and listener, if you if you think about the journey that you take in your career, whether that's in admissions or advising or wherever in higher education, there's rungs that you go through right? There's a ladder that essentially is there. And you start off in some frontline positions, and then you move to an assistant director, coordinator and associate director, and director and Todd. Todd and I had the opportunity. We were both directors in an enrollment management division at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville, and we got to know each other there, and I keep reflecting upon some of the conversations that we had. So don't worry, Todd, it's not going anywhere, but we're going to focus on work today, not not, not any extracurricular things. But I think about that timeframe of you being a director of a regional campus, and the work and the things you were doing, and making that decision, to decide to do something else in your career. Can you talk through some of that, and in some of the reasoning for that, because I think that people get to this point where they think, Well, I've become a director. I should either want to stay a director, or I should want to be a vice president or I should win. But that's not always the case, right? And you did 20 something years of being a director and decided to do something different, I think the audience would love to hear some of that, that thinking, because I think that's part of a lot of people's journey.

Todd Burrell  
Oh, it it was something that you're right. Kevin, I've thought about this even before. You know, taking on this role is what would I want to do next? And I feel like always in my career, I really enjoyed the space as director, because I felt like at that level, yes, you were in a lot of meetings, strategy planning, always doing that. I enjoyed that part. You were managing staff. And that was kind of my background. I had a management degree. Again, I went to college for a management degree, and kind of got to use it in college admissions, in and working develop young staff. And I really, I really appreciate that, and working with those that had been the office for some time that all their expertise, and taking that all in. So it was a lot of fun in that director role. But then after 20 years, it was like, Okay, what's my next step? I felt okay, what is going to be my next step? And in my role, I had the chance to meet a lot of people and talk with them over time. And when you're in that director space, it is a great space in the and then getting involved in professional development, I know, bro, you mentioned, I have had a great chance to do a lot of that. So you talk to people, not just in the state that you're in, but nationally and that, and you get to hear their stories, and there are a few individuals that were saying, you know, I did the director, and they've gone on to say, now I was able to maybe step back and get back to the front line. And that kept standing out, is what got me interested in emissions, or continued the spark in emissions. And it literally was working with the students and families, and then at direct row. And you all know this, you all are in key leadership positions. You can't interact as much with students because your time is spent doing so much else. And that was the one thing I was lacking. And I would, I would definitely block out my account. I'd never say today I would go to a staff member, and I would say, I'm going to do your presentation today, not just one and but it was like, I gave them a break, but then got me into the front line so I could kind of hear from the families what was going on. I love that I would take phone shift for an hour in our office, and they would be like, you're the. Director, why you doing that? I'm like, I gotta hear what's happening, what's going on. Plus, I think that's where you learn the most. You get questions. You're like, I don't know. Okay, let me figure this out. So I really like that. And when University of Illinois, Urbana Champaign, I had this position that they had been talking about for years, and I never forget one of my colleagues, Dr Andy Boris. He was director at U of I I talked about creating a regional rep in the metropolitan area around SIUE, and I said to him, no, because you don't need to come in our backyard. U of, I doesn't have to come in our backyard. That that just be crazy. And this is I wasn't even thinking about it for me again. This was, I think back in 2019 he might have been thinking about before then. But I was like, No, don't do it around our backyard. We don't need you here. But anyway, it, they created it, and we talked about it and and I thought about it at that time. I The thought was in my mind, like, you know, that'd be kind of fun. Regional Rep, getting back to the basics. I can stay in a community I live in where family and I'm close to a lot of you know family reasons. You got to make that decision for that as well. That was going to be something neat. Well, when they went to go post this position, it was around March of 20. We all know what happened in March of 20. So that just that. Just put it on hold this position here at U of I, and then they brought it back in 22 and it went quickly. He reached out and he said, Hey, I think you should apply for this. It's an opportunity. By that time, a lot had happened again in covid, and it was, it was really like something that allowed me to think about my role and what I wanted to do. I didn't want to leave SIUE. I still love it. It's a great place. It's my alma mater, one of my alma mater so but I was ready to consider this opportunity. And long story short, they gave me the opportunity, went through the interview process, got offered the position, thought about it, was able to make this decision, knowing that, again, I'm not the director. Now, I'm not in charge of the office, but I'm a contributor, is what I call it, but very important person who's going to help them to meet goals. But yet, I'm not in those spaces of leading it, strategy and all that. So it was a great opportunity, and something that, yeah, I did I ever want to move up to the VP levels and enrollment manager levels that I know you and the director levels you all are in? It crossed my mind. But then when I had this chance, and having done college admissions for 30 years, I thought, What a great way and great opportunity to finish my college career, because this is my last stop. This is going to be in higher ed. This is what I want to do now. I have no end dates in mind. I love this, as long as they want to work with me at U of I and keep me I'm here because I'm enjoying it a lot. 

Kevin Thomas  
I think about this a lot with this Todd, and I'll give you some praise here, because I think there's part of this that I talk to people about, and I use some of your story in this way at orientation at SIUE there, there used to be, and I don't know if there still is, right, there could be a session in which you would talk to parents, and you would, you would, you Know, you would go and you'd share your journey and share a story about, you know, going to college and your experience. And it had some humor in it, but it also had some emotion in it. So people were laughing and people were crying, and it was all this but that, and that's a great story in itself, but the thing I always remember is what it did to you, like you loved giving that presentation. You love the opportunity to interact with families and students. And that was the glow that that just was so special. And that was the moment that was just so special in those timeframes of the year. And then it was, it was almost as if in certain roles, and not just we all have this thing in our roles where we would say, this is the worst part. This is that you had to kind of Drudge through other things sometimes, whether it was a difficult supervision thing or a difficult thing. And so I just want to say, I think some moral of the story right is that when you know what those things are that turn your light on right that gets you to that point being able to find a way to embrace that is pretty special,

Todd Burrell  
Absolutely. Kevin, thank you for bringing up that. This the presentation, yeah, orientation. It. That was one of my favorite things. I looked forward to it. It was towards the middle, the end of the day, and it was the end of our program, and I spoke to the parents, and it it was an awesome opera. I always kept thinking, I hope I'm entertaining to them, because they have been through a day and a half of programming, and the last thing they want is really just to be done and to hear this older guy come on stage and talk about it. It. It was a lot of fun, and I really fed off the audience. And when they would talk about how it just helped or resonated, that was a story. And I talk a lot about my parents in that presentation and all in fun, but literally, we were all first gen. I was first gen. My parents going through it. We made some fun mistakes, if you want to call that, we did. We just did. We had some fun discussions. I call those discussions, but it was great to talk about it. And I'd always kid my mom. I said, you know, I'm going to bring you here so they can see you. So when we talk, when I talk about you, they can see you. And she always said, One day I'm just going to show up. And I kept she never did it, because I knew she wouldn't, but it was awful. But I Kevin, you're right. I enjoyed that, and I feel like I get to do that now every day in this role, and I know it's a grind, and I any entry level admissions person out there that's listening to this would would probably say, you enjoy doing that every day. And I honestly can say, Yes, I do, but I get it towards the end of travel season. Let me tell you, I'm ready to be done. Yeah, because you have said the same thing over and over. You have driven many miles. You have flown many miles, wherever your travel territory takes you. You have packed luggage. You have brochures in your trunk, you have spoke to hundreds of students and families. And it's exhausting and but I get so energized by it that I get to go out and help families and and the thing I tell families is my job is not to tell you where to go to school. I mean, my job is to tell you about the institution I work for, but my job is to help you out in that process, and then you get the awesome decision to make the decision of where you want to go. That's your choice. I just hopefully played a role in that. So when it comes time, you have everything in front of you to make a good decision, and and that's the fun part of my job, because some people say, Well, what would you do? Where would you go? And I said, my mind may be different than yours, so you gotta make that. I never make that decision for them. Sometimes we'll have tough discussions about cost and money, and I had those when I was 17 or 18, too. You had to really make a good, informed decision. But it's an awesome opportunity that I have to do what I'm doing, and to kind of, as I say, get back to the basics as far as what my career is. And I don't, I know there's others out there have done it, because I've talked to a few that I've known through my involvement, professional development, involvement that, you know, we always say there should be, there should be a group of us that said we led, had the opportunity to lead an institution as director or some space, and now we're doing this entry level work that is just as crucial as that director role.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I love that. And I had a couple of thoughts. Kevin got in there before I did but yeah, you did it, you did it, you did it. But here's what I would say. Todd, I think the other value, right? Each of us, I was thinking about this as you were responding to this question, each of us have been at about three or four different places, and I'm always, I'm always humbled by how much I've learned in each of those spaces. And you talked about speaking positively about most of the spaces where you've worked, and I can say the same thing, all of my experiences have kind of informed who I am right at this moment. And I think, you know, even, even as Kevin's talked about, you moving into maybe a role that's more student facing and maybe doesn't make director like decisions, having all of that experience makes you better in the role that you're currently serving. And I think we should acknowledge that. And you know, we talked to some guests who've been at the same place their entire career, and they've found ways to gain experiences even within that same space. But I do think that it's important to acknowledge that everything we've done really informs who we are in that moment, and so that's the first thing. I really just wanted to respond to that, and hearing you talk about your story and how passionate you are about the work, really, I think, speaks to all of that. But the second piece is to kind of move to then how you're using that experience to kind of help in the admissions process, and so thinking about that story and in all the spaces where you've been. What's the biggest challenge you see students and families facing in the admissions process, and how can institutions better address that?

Todd Burrell  
Oh, gosh, I think there's just the challenges in this space are, I think, for students and families are, they are the it do? There's a lot, I think it's, it's knowing about the college admissions process. There are, there are definitely students families that have a lot of resources available to them that assist in that role and what to do and all that. But they're also students, and I work with a lot of these now, and that's part of my role at U of I is that they don't know what to ask. They don't know what to do that's being the students and families and so just beginning the application process, working with that to to how do I go about applying for scholarships and aid? So I think part of the challenge, though, is understanding the higher education cost. That's That sounds cliche, and I think that that's a big challenge, but then also going about the process to apply, and understanding the process to applying and what their opportunities are. So for instance, with me, I talk a lot with those students and families now that they may want to go into a certain program or major, but let's just say engineering. I speak a lot about engineering and and I speak a lot about the health sciences, but they are struggling with math. And I'm like, Okay, well, well, let's talk about your career, because there are opportunities out there that you can do, but there are going to be some schools if you're struggling with math, you may not get in, because that's what we're going to look at for your grades, but there might be another opportunity, another another program for you, that you may be a good fit for that even if you're struggling with math. So I love that I get to talk a lot about what they've done, where they might want to go, and then maybe some new opportunities for them. And that's again, part of my role that I get to do now. So I think, though, getting back to your question, the cost for the families, and getting over that at the institution, Matt, now, it's very different than any other institution I've been at before. It's selectivity. It's like, I can't even get in to U of I don't even think, I don't think I have the score the GPA. Someone's talking through them with them and saying, Okay, well, what have you done? Okay, well, there you might have an opportunity, you know, because I think what they may think of U of, i is, is just at the top, you know, you got to be that number one, you got to have done everything. And that may not be the case for programs they're applying for. So we talk a lot about that. But then in my other institutions where I've been at, it's really assisting them with just that whole application process, not making that a burden, and then letting them know there might be aid out there. Going back to my story, when I said my family threw away my college application because it cost too much. I shared a lot with families to say, don't rule that out. Now, you know it may come down to that cost sure you have to make that decision, but right now, if that's a place you want to go and you think it might be possible, apply if you have to roll it out later, because you have great options in front of you. They more economically feasible do that, but don't rule that out until then, because you never know. And I feel like the places that I have worked at have given students that chance. In particular when I was at SIUE, I was at Saint Louis U and at Quincy they there were many opportunities for students say, Okay, here's what we can do for you. Merit based and knee base, that may make this tuition more affordable. And two of those places, I'm only I've worked at two publics, one now, and one prior, but then two privates. And with privates there, it may be the opportunity to that the aid is there for you, you just never know. So don't roll it out, because you see the initial sticker cost. So I think that the financial aid, again, the cost of it, the application process, just applying to colleges, and then the outcomes, I think, is what's going to happen afterwards. You know, there's a lot of talk about higher ed and the value of higher education, and I think it's extremely valuable. Again, my parents, who never went to college, still believe in that. Now, all of our siblings are grown like myself and families and out of college, but they encouraged it if that's what we wanted to do, because any type of education, whatever it might be was going to be helpful in your career. And again, these are two individuals who never went to school, but they understood the value of education and continuing that. And so I think helping families to know that it the higher education is going to benefit them in some form, some way, whatever you might do, whatever pathway you take. So yeah, that's how I think those are the things that I see again, on that front line is, is helping those families through those processes with application and aid.

Kevin Thomas  
It's great. I think that one of the things you talk about, I think resonates no matter what field you're in, and as we're working with students. Or even as we're working with staff that may be on our teams, one of these things that occurs is people that assume that the door is closed before they ever try to even open it. And and I think what you said there is is pretty poignant. When you look at it and say, Hey, try to open the door like see if you walk through, what that might feel like, and that's just such a powerful message, and good for you, and good for the students that you're working with and those families to hear that walking through. I'm going to shift here a little bit to some of the things with professional development. And again, I think this is a praise point. I think that some of the things that you did in your career, but then also with your teams from a professional development standpoint, are just stand out. You know, you really, I think you embrace taking care of your team because of all the hard work that they were having to do, but I think that you also owned your own professional development. And so when you look at that, how do you really encourage new professionals to get involved and grow their leadership and service and to try to get better in their own professional careers. And how, how do you still do that now, even though your roles have shifted.

Todd Burrell  
Oh my gosh, I love this professional development opportunities for me, I was blessed. I was so fortunate and and the opportunities that were given to me, and I will look back to my time when I started, I traveled Chicago my first few years for Quincy, my alma mater for my undergrad, and I'd never been to Chicago before, never been to the city of Chicago, and high school counselors would welcome me, and never forget there was one individual at a large public school up in Chicago suburbs. Sue was her name, and she met I met her at a summer training event that Quincy sent me to to to learn about the admissions role. And she said to me, why don't you come up before your travel season, and I will go through all the high schools with you and tell you a little bit about each and what to expect. That was awesome. And I won't forget that, that she did that for me, this small college, this this guy that had never done a mission, she invited me up to her school and went over everything, and it was very helpful. And she was president of IACC, Illinois Association of College Admission Counseling at the time. So this is very intimidating for me as well, to be like, Oh my gosh, the President's coming up. Or, you know, got in my best everything the best forward, making sure that you know all this is going well, and it, it was just awesome. And I'll not I'll never forget that. I don't know what day I did that it was obviously after I started in June of 92 but it was so helpful. And as I think about what I've done over my career, I want to be like that as well. I really love that we have individuals that are interested in our professions, whether they be in admissions or any aspect of Enrollment Management, retention, the advising area, I think it's very vital that we have those individuals that want to get into this profession and want to do that and professional development is so important Not only to help you out and your institution out. But I also think personally, it helps you to grow you. You're put in spaces where you get the opportunity to learn more about yourself, and I feel like that's happened to me. You know, I had the chance to serve as mo ACAC, Missouri association for mission counseling, president and Illinois Association of College, Michelle President, that that was awesome. Now that was six years of a lot of work. Let me just say this right now that, um, it's, it's six years of intense work, and I did it all while I was director so at the institutions that I was at SIUE, I did the role, I came in as president Missouri, and I also did Illinois. And then when you're involved, you get involved nationally, so you'll get it attend opportunities with NACAC. And so that is that was just awesome. And I look back on it now and think, wow, I would not probably be where I'm at or be the person I am without all those opportunities. Again. You all have done leadership roles, so I know I'm talking you all know what it is, but it's a lot of work. When you say, yes, it's a lot of work that you have to do and but I I look back on it and I'd be like, I'm glad I did it, because it's good. So I always encourage say yes to a committee volunteer start out there. Yes, you know you don't have to be in a leadership position right away. You don't ever have to do a leadership position if you don't want to. But if you're doing that committee work, it's just as important. It's like. By being a staff member, the person that answers the phone in my office, I always said was the most important person, because it if you call in and you don't, you don't get a good greeting, it could be everything. So they're just as important as me sitting in the director chair at SIUE when I had that opportunity to do that. And so you got to make sure. Again, coming back to part of the question, how you treat the staff? You know, I, I want them to know that. You know your role is just as vital to this office. If it wasn't, why would we need it? Then? So it's very vital. And but then, how can I help you to professionally develop maybe you want to move up in your career. I always forget, you know, I always say this, I had staff that would come in and I feel like, okay, admissions is a training ground. And then I would have staff, and I see it now in my role at U of I too, we have our young sacrament, the next step, what they what do they want to do? Advising, which is so essential. You all, you know, I'm talking to of advising here and people listening, and I think advising is like the most essential thing at the university, because I always say admissions, we work with them a year or two, and maybe they start junior year. Some will start earlier in that great. But you really start to build that relationship senior year. So you work with them for a year, and then they enter okay, and that that begins at orientation or registration programs, admissions is still a little bit involved, but then literally come first aid classes, or a little before that, they're turned over to an advisors for four years or more. And so we get to work with them for one year, but then we get to say, Okay, next. And I kind of like that about admissions, but then I think, oh my gosh, these advisors are working with them for four years, and these are great students with a lot of questions, but that's a lot, and I always felt like, oh my gosh, if I look back, I had a great advisor, and I don't know how the role was back in the 80s when I was entering college. Advising has changed a lot over many years, but I even had a great advisor that helped me out along my pathway to find out my appropriate major, and that really guided me well and and so I think about how they are so important, but I have staff and admissions that will say, I want to do this, but then I I would like to aspire to be that advisor. So we're training them, and I'm like, Well, if you do admissions, you're going to be doing a lot, because you have to know everything, and then you're going to maybe lead into other areas of Student Affairs type work or institutional work that are going to open up any doors. So again, coming back to professional development, I say volunteer. If professional vault maybe is not the state association or professional association, maybe it's getting involved on campus. Say yes to helping out another office, because you may learn something. Say, I want to do that, and I want to get involved in that, and those doors will start to open. So I'm just a big promoter, and I always have been. I never forget in a few years that we, you know, there are budget crunches in the state. There's going to be there. They're always, I feel like there's always going to be those times and they say, Well, we got to cut professional like, oh gosh, you know, I don't like that. That's just what we have to do. I have to relay that message. But then I thought, okay, how can the staff get involved on campus and help other offices? Because, again, I view that as professional development. You're developing yourself that may open up doors for new careers. Not that I wanted them to leave admissions, but give them that opportunity to say, you know, there's my next step that that that step I want to take to whatever that role might be. So I'm a big advocate of professional development. Always, I've had doors open for me and wonderful opportunities, and I I really want to be that example. So I just share my story the new staff at U of I now, where I work, they'll ask questions, how did you get involved? And I say, I don't know how I got elected or how I got asked, but here's what I did along the way, and I think that led to it.

Kevin Thomas  
Todd, the answer is, people liked you, and so you tell them, you say, I got elected because people liked me and they voted for me. You don't tell them, it's like, you're the only person that ran.

Todd Burrell  
It was single slated. It was single slated.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So I do, I do think, right, though, like, it's a it's creating a culture of Yes, right? Like this idea that the answer sometimes is yes, even when it's scary, say yes, right, even when it even when it might, you might be concerned about the amount of time it's going to take say Yes, right? Like, I've, I've not had in my career any kind of professional development or service where I said, No, I don't think I'm going to do that and and maybe you regret some of the time that it takes to do that, but I think when you start from that basic default response is yes, this sounds interesting. I'm going to give this a go. I'm going to try this. I think especially. Especially for new professionals, it really is the right approach. Right is, how can I contribute? What can I learn from this experience? Certainly, I need to balance time and responsibilities, but if no, is always their answer. It's that narrow focus, narrow impact if I say no and just focus on the specific job responsibilities, or don't feel like I can contribute in other ways, then the impact is going to be less as well. So that's, it's such a poignant response. Todd, I really, I really resonated with everything that you were saying there.

Todd Burrell  
Yeah, say, Yes. I love that you mentioned, because that was always the thing that when we would go and, you know, and part of your role with an association, when you're in President, you move on to past president, you have to pick that next round of leadership. Those candidates are going to run for leadership. And I'd always say, say yes, if you can. And there, there's one individual I'll never forget in IACC that that's kind of was her theme for presidential year. Was Annie. She would always say, I said yes, and I encourage others. And she was a positive role model for anybody that got into the profession or that been in it for a long time, like myself. She was just that energy and enthusiasm. And she said her thing was, say yes, you know, and and find that balance, you know, having shared the balance, but absolutely take advantage of that opportunity to get involved in, yeah, professional development is just a wonderful opportunity in our profession, I feel like. And again, it's not only helping the institution out in the office, because you're learning more about what's going on, but it's helping yourself out and and again, giving you opportunities that again, I didn't think I would get because just by getting involved, I feel like many times my roles at SLU were developed because I was putting leadership positions in a professional development organization, leading a committee that then that helped me out to be like, Okay, I Think I'm ready for management in the office, and because I've dealt with this situation, and that just continued on to where, when the opportunity arose to to apply for a director's job, I was That was scary. I was like, I don't think I could do this. I don't know all the ins and outs of a director's job. But then when I applied and and had the opportunity to interview, and I was like, no, maybe I could. And so if offered, I'll consider this. And and then I was able to do that for 20 years at a regional public institution that is my alma mater. And I just, it's just, it was just wonderful. And then the work with the people, though the I never saw that as a benefit. Yes, there are times in management that I'm like, I just Yeah, no, don't want to do anymore that. But most of the time, yes, I've been there. I've been there, you know, Kevin, but, but there are, most of the time, it was great, and I enjoyed that and that opportunity to do that, and now I'm, I'm, I'm, hope I can do that. I hope I can be that employee that allows my boss, and because I have a wonderful boss right now, a wonderful boss that is just allows for that. But I also say I just really appreciate how she leads and what she does, but I hope I can be the employee to say, How can I help you out from what I've done in my lifetime of a missions career, any advice, and so it's a great relationship I currently have, and I couldn't be more happy with that. I think that's another part of it is when you work with great people and surround yourself with good bosses, and I've had great bosses over my career that that adds to what I do and what I enjoy.

Kevin Thomas  
It's great. The the fun of this, right is that we haven't gotten to the fun questions yet, and so we need to. So now that you're traveling more and you're out and about, what is like after a long week on the road, maybe that go to comfort food that you need to have,

Todd Burrell  
Oh my gosh. Okay, so go to comfort food. This is it has changed over time, but right now, if I could, if I could come home and just snack, I would do that. But I can't, because when you get older, and you all will find this out later, because I'm there now, you can look at food and it's just gonna, it's just going to grow on you. 

Kevin Thomas  
You just called Brody young, and I don't know how I feel about it. 

Todd Burrell  
You all, are you all? You both are. No, you are. But then I come home, so my go to food is I like anything Italian, but I also I haven't acquired a taste for a lot of seafood, salmon, my Mahi. So if I can have a nice meal and just sit down and have that one drink, oh, come on. Now it's Oh, and you just Yes, it's very good. Not 10 years ago, I would never ate it, probably. But now I'm like, Yep, so I don't know, but if I can do that, that's my go to happy meal now, yeah.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's the anti donut response. I'm not sure we can be more Todd.

Todd Burrell  
I heard that guy. I heard, don't I wrote that not feel do not fill those donuts up. 

Kevin Thomas  
Oh, I see.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
We're at war now.

Kevin Thomas  
It's a good thing. We don't we only have a little bit left.

Todd Burrell  
I could snack, but give me anything chocolate too dark, dark chocolate. That's it. So that's my go to I don't know that's that's what I do after a long week of visits.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Dark chocolate. Dark, dark chocolate. That that's a that's an acceptable response. Salmon is not an acceptable response. So if you, if you weren't in admissions, Todd, what would your career? What? What would be like a dream job?

Todd Burrell  
Okay, so I my degrees in management, and I always thought what I want to work in Hospitality Management. That was what I thought I was going to do when I went to that career counselor. I never forget, okay, maybe Hotel Management, because I thought that'd be kind of cool and fun. I have shifted because I I love sports, and I get to oversee an admission review committee. Now, my current role here at U of I that one of the majors I oversee is sport management. And if I could go back and because I'm not an athlete. I I can't pretend to be I like to be active, but I am new it i i was the manager of my high school basketball team, so I'll never forget this. I'll share this though. This is really date me. So back when everybody as a freshman thought they could play basketball, and I grew up in a town here in Illinois that is basketball crazy. We didn't have football, so everybody went out for basketball. I think there were 20 plus kids that went out for basketball. And you can't have 20 kids on a team. You can, but you're going to be 10 that are never going to play. That's right. I'll never forget freshman year playing basketball. And and the coach comes up and and he says, Well, I think we're going to move you up to varsity. Now, I never played you all. I if there was a 30 point lead and two seconds left, yes. I came in and he said, we're going to move you to varsity. I'm like, Huh? He said, We want you to be our manager. And I did that, I did that, I did the manager thing, and I loved it. And so who would have thought back then? I thought, I wish I would have known about the degree of sport management, because I would have loved to have gone to a college to got involved in college athletics, yeah, to work, to think that, if there was such a thing as, like, a director of operations type thing, got that experience, and know, who knows where that would have taken me, because I love being in in the Sport world, because I really enjoy that I just can't play. So that's what I would do. And so it is awesome that I could talk about sport management, but I have a student comes up and said, Can you tell me more about this major? I'm like, yes, we could talk forever, because that we might be I don't know where I it would have taken me, but that's the other career I would have done.

Kevin Thomas  
Alright, you kind of touched on this a little bit, but this is, this is maybe the most important answer you're going to provide for those folks that listen to this from hometowns or family. If you were going to choose shoes to wear the rest of your life, would they be tennis shoes or maybe some wooden shoes?

Todd Burrell  
Kevin, I love it. Yes. Let's bring in my rep. Wooden shoes is the answer. Wooden shoes, yes. Now let me explain that. You all yes, you have to. I have that's my small hometown. I love where I'm from, to topless Illinois, about 2000 people. It's grown to maybe now, but it was. It's a basketball crazy town, and our nickname, we're called the wooden shoes. And it's just unique. Yeah, it's fierce, no mascot, you know, there's no shoe dressed up, roaming around the court like there might be a cougar or, you know, it, there's no mascot. It's just a pair of wooden shoes sitting in a case. That's what you want to call it, but it, it, it's so unique, and that's what I love about it. I've embraced it. And everywhere I go and all this, the teams that I get to work with and people, they always get a little wooden shoe. I send them with my hometown on them, and it's just the case. So it's a, yeah, wooden shoes is what I would wear. I have to share this story, though, if I can, because in our town, in our town, you small town, because, you know, I'm a big Cardinal fan, as you all mentioned, too, your cubs are in high school, or bears are in high school. But you start out like a Cubs, right? You make you grow from a cub to a bear, right? So you do that. We do the same thing in my hometown, you're you finish as a wooden shoe or shoe, but in grade school, you're known as the booties, the booty. This is a true story. You start out as a booty, and you grow up to be a shoe.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I mean, if the goal is to be a shoe. I guess you got to start.

Todd Burrell  
And you know, there are a bunch of people, is he going? This is the most craziest thing I've ever heard, because it's so true. We're the only one in the entire United States nickname the wooden shoes and and in Illinois, if you don't know, they have, Illinois has some mascot names that are just unique. Because when we went to the state tournament, remember I mentioned I didn't get a play, I moved up. So my sophomore year, I was the only sophomore in my high school at that time that won a state championship, and because we won it that year, we went 33 and 0, but in the semifinals at the assembly hall now State Farm Center on the campus UI, we played a team from hoopston, Eastland, Illinois, and they were nicknamed the corn jerkers. So with the corn jerkers versus the wooden shoes, only in Illinois.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I think we gotta move to lightning round, because...

Kevin Thomas  
After that, there's nowhere else to go. Alright? Todd, lightning round questions here.

Todd Burrell  
Oh, this makes me nervous. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
This will be an easy one beach, mountain or lake?

Todd Burrell  
Beach.

Kevin Thomas  
Favorite Illinois city to recruit in?

Todd Burrell  
I I can't say to topless, that's my hometown, but I Southern Illinois. It's not a city, but I'll say the Marion, Illinois area. I really enjoy going down there.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Favorite Cardinal moment? It's gotta be fast. 

Todd Burrell  
David Freese, 2011. Game Six. It's etched in my memory. I I will never forget that. I yeah that I was exhausted after that game and said, We will win the next day. There's no doubt my mind after that game, we would win. And we did. I'm with you. We were at that game. Yes, I was at. I was so fortunate. I gotta go to. I've been to World Series games one and two, gosh, six and seven and three, four and five, and I've been to so I've been to because we hosted it, opened it up in that year with six and seven and one and two, and then the when we previously were at oh six, when we played Detroit, I got to go to three, four and five.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Oh, that's incredible. That's amazing. Coffee, tea or soda?

Todd Burrell  
Coffee.

Kevin Thomas  
All right, so one word colleagues would use to describe your leadership?

Todd Burrell  
I hope they would say thoughtful, caring. I hope

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Go to karaoke song, Todd, come on. 

Todd Burrell  
Now it's, I don't sing, but if I had to. And I know this has been shared on a previous one, but when I heard it, I'm like, come on now, hold on. By Wilson Phillips, oh, oh, I know you talked about this. I love that song. I just do because, in particular, I think it should be the theme for the Cardinals this year, and moving forward.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
kevin, hat would your song be?

Kevin Thomas  
Oh, you know, I love singing some country, right? Like, if I find a good Garth Brooks song, I'm going with it, because, you know, I was a vocal music major. And then they said, you don't get to sing Garth Brooks. And I said, I'm not a vocal music major anymore. So it's those type of things. I didn't know that about you. I You didn't know I thrift and now you don't know about this. I mean, come on.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Killers. Mr. Brightside for me, Yeah, I figured there'd be something Poppy. Just, just be loud if you're going to be bad, be loud. That's the way I think about it.

Kevin Thomas  
Well, Todd, we are running short on time, but it has been an absolute pleasure having you on today to talk about your journey, your career experience, leadership, all things.

Todd Burrell  
Where did the hour go or so? Wow, this is this has just been awesome and wonderful, and I just can't thank you enough for inviting me on. I I love the opportunity to share part of my story, but then I look forward to hearing other stories through this podcast and this, again, this is one pickup meeting that I really look forward to.

Kevin Thomas  
Very good. Thanks so much. Todd, 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
We've got our blurb now. Gosh darn, he's for us.

Kevin Thomas  
Listen, he could be one of our writers people. People have said this, if you see some of the comments on our LinkedIn posts, they're like, Oh yeah, I was laughing so hard during this period of time. We have writers. We're actually not that funny. We've got a paid staff that we just have fetus information throughout. I think that's what we've really come to.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, it's Cat and Tony.

Kevin Thomas  
That's probably true. Our spouses are making us better.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Good, good. I like that. You did real good there. Kevin, absolutely.

Kevin Thomas  
See what's happening there. So what do you see? Your takeaways here today?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Oh, I mean Todd's response about professional development, right? That yes, that yes approach to me, is really sticking in my mind. And I I feel like in my career, when I've said yes to hard things, it's made all the difference. And I just believe that when we think about professional development make ourselves better in our role, right? Sometimes it means taking on an additional responsibility, or learning a new skill, or talking and making connections to someone that could be intimidating to interact with. I think yes, right? Sometimes just saying yes is the right answer.

Kevin Thomas  
And thinking about that journey in in the context of what Todd was talking about, if I hadn't said yes, yeah, how different my experience would have been professionally, in so many ways that just really now give me a lot of fuel, a lot of energy, a lot of purpose. And if I hadn't said yes, how I think, man, that there just would have been such a missed opportunity. So that that real value in saying yes, I thought was a great takeaway.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
The other thing too, right? Like Todd's story, is, is really fascinating, and I think sometimes we underestimate the power of our own personal story as it relates to understanding the work that we're currently doing and the challenges that we face, not just in at our institutions, but also within higher ed, right? So to me, it's a reminder of remembering what your experience was can really inform the way that you want to lead and work. That that was the other big piece for me.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah. So what is your takeaway as we move to to conclude things today?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
You know, we always talk about one good thing on the phone, Kevin, and like, just in my personal life, I think I'm really, I'm really excited last night, cat and I, we've been doing this now for a few, a few months, right? This trivia, this trivia night, kind of a date night. And midweek, we go to a local establishment that's in walking distance of our house. We play Trivia every Wednesday night. Our goal is to not finish last and and to not fight, and we've been mostly successful. And last night we had one of our best nights ever, like, I think, we finished just a few points out of second place. It's just the two of us. We're usually playing against teams of five or six, and we have a ton of fun. We usually go out to dinner, just chat about the day, and then hit trivia. We're getting pretty good at it. That's good. How about you? What's the one good thing?

Kevin Thomas  
You know, we are for listeners. We're several weeks into doing the podcast, and having a chance to connect with people from our careers has just been an outstanding experience. You know, I think when we talked about this in episode one of we were doing this pickup meeting, and you kind of moves from some of our phone calls that we have and some of the fun that we have within that, but now, you know, getting to do some of the conversations and getting to really just enjoy the time that we have with the guests that we bring on and reflect on the past and reflect on the journey has just been one of these moments that throughout the days that we've recorded, I just feel better about my existence. I feel better about what we're doing, and it's a good energy that is added to our day during because we started this in the fall during a very busy time in our careers, just to have that real positive experience that's happening on the day to day basis is just been a real nice surprise.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, yeah. And I think it does take off the pressure a little bit. I know that you and I spend a lot of time talking about, can we be better, and how do we how do we get, you know, really good at this. And you know, we're just four or five episodes into the the podcast and and when you have these conversations, I think you remember we we started this for us, and that's really the fun part, right? Is getting to interact with people that we really cared about, that have had an influence on our careers. So yeah, that's a great way to end the show today, man.

Kevin Thomas  
But I will say, right, like as you're wrapping things up, listen, I think that we have to plug ourselves a little bit here. So I'll just say, Hey, folks, don't forget to give us a good rating wherever you listen to your podcast. Yeah, and leave a positive comment. We would love to hear from you. I will say that even hearing from the people that we don't know that show up on, I'm on LinkedIn, I don't various other social media feeds where they say, Hey, this is one of the best listens that I have all week. And I can't tell you how much that means when we hear those things. So thank you for those folks that are sharing it.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
All right, friends, that's it for this edition of the pickup meeting. We hope all your regular meetings are as productive and fun as we had today, until next time, do good, achieve be nice, and we'll see on the flip side you you.