Ep. 4 - Ben Gross, Lipscomb University

Saving thousands on haircuts, binge-buying vinyl, and interviewing one of higher ed’s most approachable leaders. This week, Brody and Kevin sit down with Ben Gross for a conversation that blends laughter, leadership, and life lessons. Dr. Gross is department chair, mentor, and self-proclaimed fried chicken enthusiast from Lipscomb University.

From fandoms to navigating faculty-staff collaboration, embracing AI in pharmacy education, and even the eternal Coke vs. Pepsi debate (#NeverPepsi), this episode has it all. Plus, Ben shares what makes him a trusted leader and why being vulnerable might be the most powerful leadership tool of all.

Grab a Diet Coke, settle in, and join us for an episode that’s equal parts fun, thoughtful, and unexpectedly heartwarming.

*The Pickup Meeting is a spinoff of the Adventures in Advising podcast!

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Transcript

Kevin Thomas  
And away we go. Welcome back to the pickup meeting. So good to be recording again today and just hanging out with Brody bro shears. How you doing, bud?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I'm doing great. I'm having, I'm having a great week, and it's been a fun start to the semester. I'm I'm feeling pretty good. How about yourself?

Kevin Thomas  
I'm good. We're recording today on a Friday, and I feel like that's a different energy already, even if you have had a long week of Friday, makes it so much better.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yes, Fri-yay, for sure. 

Kevin Thomas  
No, I'm never going to do that. So you can stop that nonsense. What is that?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I think that's a lot of fun.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, it looks like you have a fresh cut today.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I do shave. Shaved my beard. I'm feeling a little naked, and I shaved my head. And I was thinking about this, like I've been shaving my head since 1994 and now I'm bald, like my hair wouldn't grow back, but I think about the amount of money I have saved, because I haven't been to a barber since 1994.

Kevin Thomas  
And what, what did chat GPT tell you about the amount of money that you've saved? I didn't type it into chat GPT, but maybe I should do that. Okay, so I did. Oh, you did. That's fantastic. How great, right? And so there's an estimated amount, right? It just depends on the varying costs, and then it depends on how well you would tip. And I thought to myself, in 1990 I don't know that he would have tipped super well. Now, I think he might. I don't know, right? Maybe you've been a great tipper your entire life. I'm not certain.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I'm a generous tipper. I think it's important to tip well.

Kevin Thomas  
It's some range of money. It says between nearly $7,000.12 $1,000.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Maybe that's funded the first half of my record binging post covid.

Kevin Thomas  
This is a good conversation for you to bring up when, anytime you're spending money on records.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Absolutely, I do think that that's a great idea.

Kevin Thomas  
But I've saved this much money on haircuts so I can buy this hit album that I want for my collection.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's right, that I don't need at all, that you don't need at all. We were talking about this the other day, soccer season started, and Wrexham, they're in the championship.

Kevin Thomas  
They are in the championship. And there's going to be so many people that think that that means that they're in the final game. And I probably used to be one of those people that thought they were in the final game, but no championship is a league.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And it's not the highest League, it's the second highest League, right? Because the highest league is the Premier League.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, this is all new to me. I don't understand it. I had to call you the other day because they went to penalty kicks or Nope, they went to a shootout. Yeah, yeah. One of those terms is right. We'll we'll figure that out later. They went to one of those and ended up winning, and I didn't understand why that was occurring. So I know so little and so these are the people that everyone is like, oh, you're a Wrexham fan, but only because of the show. Yes, that's true. I was influenced in that way you want from me. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
The Show is great. Kevin's a new soccer fan or football fan. If you want to be correct, right? That's no problem. We welcome new football fans and soccer fans to the fold all the time. And if this is Wrexham brought you there, I'm happy, because it makes our phone conversations even better. If you haven't watched the Wrexham, the Wrexham television show that was started on FX with Rob Mack and Ryan Reynolds. They bought this the oldest football team, or the oldest soccer team in Wales, and they've, they've moved up the ranks in leagues through promotion, which I know is something that American sports fans don't really understand. But essentially, you have to perform really, really well to move up to the next league. But you get to move up to the next league if you perform well. And Wrexham has been promoted three straight years, and so they are now one league away from the the pinnacle of English football, which is the Premier League. Now they've started slow a little bit this year right there. They haven't had any wins. But the story is really about the town. The show is really about the town, and Ryan Reynolds and Rob Mack kind of bringing the town up with the team, and it's a fascinating watch.

Kevin Thomas  
And I like the journey of enjoying the show and getting really excited about wins, getting really excited about the drama that they build in it, and then crying my eyes out When they tell some story that is just touching about coal miners or the town or fans being touched by the team, and that's just what a great watch. And so yes, it is that time of the year where I'm getting up on Saturday mornings and turning on Wrexham and just enjoying it as I do my morning walk. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And they are a lot easier to watch on TV now, because, I think paramount, plus CBS Sports, they do the they do the championship, right? So there's weekly games on TV, and you can catch Wrexham pretty easily.

Kevin Thomas  
So listen, we're looking for sponsorship with all of those drops that you just did, absolutely, FX and CBS and, you know, air mount. Plus, I know those that's not higher ed, but we're looking for sponsorships here, right? We like that.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's right. And it is the fall, and it's a good time to be in higher ed. The fall is always a great time, right?

Kevin Thomas  
It's so wonderful. First weeks of class, people getting in acclimated, you know, just getting used to the learning experience being back on full force. There's nothing better. And I'll say, living in Arkansas, I'm super pumped that it's not 105 110 degrees anymore. Yes, somebody said recently, they said, What is the fall weather in Arkansas? And I said, I'm fairly certain last year it was October 13, and that might have been it. It just felt like it was just one day.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I'm in central Illinois, and it's been brutally hot here. It was actually hotter than where I grew up in Evansville, Indiana, which doesn't happen very often, but the worm is turned here. I think the weekend is going to be great, and the weather like they're talking about, like the high 40s for the evening. So turn off the AC. Get to get out on campus, take some walks. I went to a poster sale the other day. I acted like a college student. I went to one of the poster sales that was on the quad. Got myself a little poster. I have no idea what I'm going to do with it, but it was too good to not pick up. It was a gorillas poster demon days, their second record, one of my favorite records, so I did it.

Kevin Thomas  
I did it. That is very college. Yes, the poster sale was the first time you walk onto a college campus and the poster sale is going on. That's the place to be now. Nowadays you have the air pod or ear buds in and you're listening to something. So is it music? Is it podcast? What are you listening to?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I, I am listening to a lot of music. So like I do like keeping up with the news, and so the daily seems to be kind of my news podcast, and it has been, for me, at least a little distressing to listen to that. So I have to have some releases, some fun releases. I mean, I do love the daily, and I listen to the daily, not every day, but most days. Song exploder is a podcast that I've really loved which kind of speaks to my love for music, but it takes a singular song and an artist, maybe a producer, and they talk about the crafting of that song with the host, and then at the end of the podcast, which lasts about 1920 minutes an episode, they actually play the song, which I love, pretty, pretty, pretty fun stuff. How about you? What are you listening to? 

Kevin Thomas  
So about a year ago, I stumbled onto a show uh, called Purple daily. It's a daily Vikings podcast that I listen to sporting, my sport, sport them and my fandom there. I'm also a big fan of smart list, big fan of smart list. And like smart list too. Yeah, it's just such a good show. And then in a week's period of time, I usually fit in the the latest episode of, uh, criminal, which is about various crime related things that are interesting to me. And one of my favorites, 99% invisible, with Roman Mars, just such a great show, and it touches on all kinds of topics, but I really enjoy it. If anybody's looking for a podcast that just makes you feel better, I encourage you to do 99% invisible, who let the dogs out, which essentially just gets to the origin of the who lets the dog, who let the dogs out, song and where it would have come from. It is just amazing, and it's one you can listen to multiple times, but those are my podcasts that I really like.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I'll have to check that out. I think you've sent me that I just haven't had a chance to.

Kevin Thomas  
You just ignored me. I got it. Yeah.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
between you and my wife sending me things to listen to and watch, plus the things that I already listened to and watch, I'm bound to let one of you down, that's for sure.

Kevin Thomas  
Well, I think it's time for us to listen to someone else other than us, and so it's probably a good time to bring on our guest this week. We're joined today by Dr. Ben Gross. He's department chair and of the College of Pharmacy at Lipscomb, where he also leads residency programs and assessment efforts. And maybe I got some of that right. Did I get all of it right? Ben gross, welcome to the show.

Ben Gross  
Yeah, some stuff. Yeah. I feel like you guys, there's additional titles that are added to your name, maybe not a pay increase, but definitely additional titles, but I think you got most of it, yeah.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I think the audience might be familiar with other duties added on without additional pay, that's for sure.

Ben Gross  
Yeah, it's not part of the contract, but it's always in there. Read the fine print.

Kevin Thomas  
And our titles have evolved to a point where they're just so general, because we don't want business cards to be that long. So let's get started here. Uh, we're going to self disclose from the beginning here. We need to this is really important. This is important in our previous shows, Brody and I knew both the guests and this one. Brody doesn't know Ben, but I've known Ben for 25 years, and in so Ben and I went to college together. We grew up a little bit in some of career related things. We're fraternity brothers from Murray State University. Let's go ahead and claim the racer pride there. But this is, this is going to be interesting to see how this works. There's a little nervousness of, will the banter still be as great? And I said, this is really a perfect pickup meeting, because most time you're going to coffee and you're like, Oh, hey, Brody, you know Ben? Ben, do you know Brody? And then that's how connections get to happen on campuses and the things we do. So this is gonna be fun. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I'm a little nervous, because I already kind of poke fun at him prior to being on screen. So now I feel like the on air banter is going to be aimed in my direction.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, he's coming at you. Ben, why don't you get us started and just tell us a little bit, because we think that a lot of folks that are listening are probably in the advising and student success realm, and so you don't you operate in that in a different way. But you are at Lipscomb University, and you started in a faculty role. You direct programs, you work with teams. How do you think that those early or how do you think your early responsibilities prepare you for your broader leadership? And what's that journey really been like for you?

Ben Gross  
Well, I think, as most of the faculties at Lipscomb here at the college pharmacy, or pharmacist in general. So if you think about a pharmacist, they're often leading patients in a number of ways. So I think I kind of take some of those skill sets that I learned very early on and kind of develop those leadership skills and how I lead patients to do have better health care, take their medications and all those types of things. But I think I always think about what led me to be in a leadership role, and it's more about kind of looking at people that I've seen prior, mentors, role models, and kind of emulating some of the things they did right and some of the things they did wrong, and kind of making those things into who I thought I should be a leader. And I'll be honest with you, the one thing advice I always give people who are starting any position like this or any type of leadership role is you don't know everything. If you have that mentality that you don't know everything, but you have the ability to know where to find that information, that's the best I don't go into any situation say, I'm not the smartest person in the room, but I'm going to learn and gain and develop, because I'd like to be that person that people rely on when I'm thrust in opportunities to lead.

Kevin Thomas  
I told Brody, when we were having you, discussing you as a guest and going to have you on that I said, you're going to be really excited about having been as far as a leader. I think he's probably one of the strongest leaders I've ever met in my life. And Brody says, Well, what does he do? Really, well, what? And you know, what's like, the really those strengths, and I can list a whole host of things that are there, but I think you touched on a little bit when you're talking about being a leader and growing and picking things up from people, what are those things that you feel like you've picked up along the way that have really transformed who you are as a leader?

Ben Gross  
I think the biggest thing in in that I have kind of picked up is being and I've read tons of books about this, but you have to be a little bit vulnerable as a leader. You have to have the ability for your people that you're leading to connect with you in a very kind of personal way so that they feel comfortable. I think Kevin and I, the thing that I pretty much feel like I've done really well is I am someone that people want to come when they are in struggling or in trouble, wherever that is, that's from patients to students to faculty members. People rely on that, and that's something I picked up from, from my mentors, of being someone that was approachable, someone who is in the trenches. I always feel like as a leader, I'm willing to do the things that I'm asking someone else to do as well, and and I've shown that throughout my career, those are things I picked up from people that I worked for and worked under, but just the ability to be approachable as a leader, and feel feeling a comfort, almost a safe place for people to go. I think that's been something I've always picked up and tried to be that kind of leader for the people that I that that work with me and that I've worked with too, even people that lead me, they sometimes come to me and confide in things me too, like that's kind of a it's kind of both ways, right? So I've always had that kind of and I've had that since I was very, very young. I always tell the story my students and. I'm in the line when I was 16 at a subway, and the guy starts ordering me, you know, I start ordering my food. They start putting things together. And by the way, I'm putting this subway in so they could be one of your advertisers, too. So, Subway, eat fresh, all right. So subway, so I remember, and this was, like, very early on, I'm ordering this food, and by the time I start, and to the end, this guy has told me his entire life story and interjected, and at the very end says, I'm so glad I talked to you today. I think that's something I picked up, like, literally on is like, okay, maybe there's something about me that allows opportunity for people to feel like, hey, if there's the world's kind of coming around, like, Where can we go? Where's the place we know that okay, if Ben Gross is there, maybe things won't be so bad and but anyway, but once again, subway the best they should do advertising for you guys. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Ben, I I'm reading your job title Department Chair of the College of Pharmacy at liscom, where you also lead residency programs and assessment efforts, and you've talked a little bit about not knowing everything, and kind of the importance of being vulnerable. And I'm looking at your Vita, and I see you've also earned an MBA, like, what's the fresh like, what's the rationale behind your pursuit of that, given the role that you have, and how has it influenced the way that you lead?

Ben Gross  
I was very blessed to get and I have to put the plug because I got it from Lipscomb University was where my MBA program from, and I have used my MBA every single day. I had a leadership conference. Yeah, everything that I do, from how I manage budgets to financing to how I manage people, all the courses I took, the networking, the people I dealt with how they taught, I took things from how they taught in the classroom I was I was just just like a student, like anyone else, listening to how they approached expectations that they provided. I've used it every single day. I use it on my faculty all the time. I tell them that. I warn them and say, Hey, I'm using a technique on you. You don't know what it is, but I'm using it today. But I the one thing about about anything about leading, is also you got to be able to feel like you're not. You haven't learned everything yet. And so I go and pursue other degrees, other credentials, go to conferences, so I continue to learn and grow. And so the NBA was really an opportunity for me to because that was, I'm a scientist, I'm I that's my background is not in the business world. And so I took a big leap, I thought, to actually go get an MBA and and get into that world. And I really enjoyed the experiences. But the leadership concentration was outstanding, and I had some very, very good faculty members that taught us about how to, how to, how to really manage people, how to connect with people, how to how to lead a team, like sitting down and like, oh my gosh, how's the team develop? How do you actually function as a team? Those are key things that I have taken on as becoming department chair.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, and, you know, Kevin and I have had lots of discussions about this in our our phone calls, right? That that man leading is hard. It takes a lot of effort, and there's a ton of learning that's really involved. I know he gave me a little grief the last episode accused me of being as smart as I'm going to be right, but, but I think earning that MBA is really impressive, and it's it's one of the approaches that I've taken is we've got a lot to learn, right? We can always be better, even when we think we're really good at something. Kevin Thomas, like, we can be better. There's no doubt about that, and that's a philosophy I've always lived by, and I think it's a good approach. No question. So good for you. That's that's really, really amazing.

Kevin Thomas  
This segment is brought to you by Lipscomb NBA, lead with purpose and succeed with impact. We're going to get a sponsor one way or another out of this, let's go Lipscomb.

Ben Gross  
Absolutely, absolutely. 

Kevin Thomas  
One of the things that I think you know about quite a bit is just measuring success of programs and what those outcomes look like. And I think that's relatable to folks that are in our listening audience, no matter what program they're doing. So when you're measuring success of your programs. What are those key outcomes or indicators that you focus on or that you think matter the most?

Ben Gross  
We rely a lot on student like evaluations of our program. I think that's a clear way to say at the end of all this, they they have the opportunity to to and it's required survey to look at that question of if I would have started my career again in pharmacy. Would I chose Lipscomb as that option? And that's still a benchmark to where we see significant majority of our students either say, strongly agree, agree that they picked the right place. I still think that's important from an from, from outcomes of our program, because that's that's we, the students are like, without the students, I'm not in this position, right? So we can clearly need to understand that. And so what is the feedback coming in? You're not going to win everyone over. There will be students who go through your program, get through done, and say, This is the worst place in the world I've ever been. But if you, collectively, the majority of students, feel comfortable where you are and who you are as an organization, or who you are as a as a learning environment, I think that's been a big outcome. And we look at things like, you know, how many people pass a board exam? You know, we look at curricular outcomes. Those are really important for us, too. But the I think it all relies on the students feedback, and the students feel of us as whether or not we gave them what they wanted. Did they learn, and then are they still, I hope at the very end, that they still want to pursue. You know, when they graduate, they that pharmacy is still the number one career option for them and when they get when they get finished. So those are some outcomes that I really think about when we're looking at our program.

Kevin Thomas  
I like it from the pride standpoint of things that you're talking about, because whether it's pharmacy or undergrad or whatever degree you're achieving, there's a pride point that's there that we want students to own that we want to own. You know, we look at this and say, We're Murray State grads, and I love that I'm a Murray State grad, but I will also say on Hill topper games on Saturday, it's like, yeah, I'm a Wk you grad too. You know, it's that embolden of who we are that really makes that pride that's there and says the experience was worth it on top of that pride, and I think that's a reality that is just so strong and is a metric that's overlooked as we're looking at graduation rates and completion rates and placement rates and all the things that are there. Do you have pride? Are you going to put on a shirt that says the institution's name and walk around and be super pumped about it?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Well, I even think, I even think student voice just more generally right, like we forget that we're here for students, and students have ideas about what's worked well or what hasn't worked well in their programs, in their advising experience, and your your response is really just a great reminder that students should be at The heart of any kind of assessment that we look at. They should be at the heart of any kind of reviews we need to hear what's working for them and what isn't working for them as it relates to any programs that we might be overseeing. I mean, yes, pride is important, but that other that voice of just is what we're doing, what we say we're delivering, and our students taking that from their experience with our programs or with our academic majors, I think that's really important. So Ben, we're not faculty, right? But what's the common misconception between faculty and staff, or ways that collaboration should be able to occur better between faculty and staff.

Ben Gross  
Well, you know, the one thing is that I, as someone who is I still teach in the classroom quite a bit, and so I still feel very connected. But there, there is a when you think about faculty and staff, the collaboration there, is very important, how the staff interact with the students, how the students how the students interact with the staff like you have to be a role model of how you want your students to act in front of faculty, in front of staff, in front of the President, the provost, whoever that is. We pride ourselves on professional pieces as relate to that. And I want to interject to kind of not to jump back. But the one thing about my experiences at Murray State, and tying those things, I think about that experience a lot, and how much I love that university, and give back to it, I take that same kind of mentality when I think about how I motivate students to have pride for this college, or have pride, or really passion to be honest with you, and what we do as pharmacists, as learners. And so I do take that, and I think that's, I guess my key point there is tying that back is I try to be a role model for our students on how they should treat other individuals, and staff is a big part of that and and without staff at any college, university, institution, organization whatsoever, they're the lifeblood. And so we tried to make sure we recognize that relationship as much as we can, because without them, there is not learning. I mean, we had that. We dealt with some technical issues today, without my staff, we would have had, it would have been terrible, because we're doing quizzes and exams, and we're always in need, need of of them. And actually, to be honest, we never have enough staff, if you know what I mean. So you know, it's like we can function what we've gotten. And that's another pride to them, is the staff ever have a big pride in you? Going through and say, I'm graduating the future, right? So they may not be teaching, they may not be in the classroom, but they're, they're a real key point or a process for us, for these students to be do well in their careers. And that's part of the the entire process of that pride piece, that everyone has pride in what they do here, and that should be the how it should be. You know, everywhere that you go in particular.

Kevin Thomas  
We have a question from somebody sent in a question. And this is a first. I wish. I feel like this should be a segment. Oh, wow. Okay, questions that are sent in, I'm not gonna tell you from who, and that's always fun too. But we're wondering, can you talk about differences between undergrads and professional students, because you've had experience in both of those with the singular focus, and maybe from an advising perspective. But I think those similarities and differences are fun to explore, and what that would be between those two student populations?

Ben Gross  
I think from the the biggest difference is probably what you kind of said, is the specialty piece. So when you move into a professional degree, from business to pharmacy, whatever that is, it's very specialized. So you begin to really explore what your career might look like. At the undergraduate level, there's a lot of opportunities for you to explore a lot of different things and and every institution allows you to be very general while you begin to think about what you might want to do. When you get into professional it's the generalities go away, and it's really more specific about okay, here's a skill set that you're going to need to be successful in this particular role that you're looking for, whatever that whatever that is, I think the workload is definitely different, and because you don't have an undergraduate, you have some flexibility in your schedule. Obviously there's there's financial aid and timing and things like that. But most professional, particularly health, medicine, pharmacy, dentistry, optometry, whatever that is, those all have a very, very number of credits that have to be accomplished within a certain period of time. And so that's a big leap for a lot of students, where they can't go. Oh, well, I really want to take nine hours because they got a lot going on. No, no, you gotta take 15 and hat, and that has to happen. So I think those are some couple big changes. And that's one of the most important interview question that we have for students is, do you understand what you're getting ready to do once you leave from undergrad into professional school, and then we have a lot of students that have gone on to do a few years of a different degree and coming back to that. And so that's still always a question to ask that we continue to ask, like, you know, why you want to do this? That's common. But the other thing is, like, have you thought about what this looks like when you're now taking 15 to 18, maybe even 21 hours in a semester with labs, with difficult courses. Everything's a is a 300 course. Everything is a 400 course. And you know what institution that means different things. I know that, but it's an upper level course for every almost everything that they're taking. So that's a big leap for some people.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
If we're looking ahead right, thinking about your role, specifically, what, what trends do you think Ben will most transform higher education, like technology policy, integration with external partners, something like that?

Kevin Thomas  
The other thing too, and I was thinking about this as you were talking in your last answer about some of these differences, Brody and I's world in the current legislative experience when we're focused primarily on undergrad students, with the changes that are happening in DC and changes that are happening in various states, and I don't know, Tennessee, off top my head, and the things that are happening. But along with his question, thinking about those things are transforming policy integration technology, you know are how are things hitting your students differently if they are?

Ben Gross  
I think, and this is one thing that I don't think students are recognizing what's happening in DC a bit, and that's a struggle, purely when you think about Grad PLUS loans and things that really can impact them, it's kind of outside of mine. It's like it's not impacting me just yet. But that's, you know, I think, I think AI is, is you talk about technology, but that that is the game changer, and I think that that our students are embracing that and utilizing that as a resource, and so we have to that that's the biggest thing that we are adapting to is, is learning about AI. I mean, we have a master's program and artificial intelligence here the at the university. Now, there's just a lot of things that we're exploring. We use Google box. I mean, there's just things that we're kind of, we've determined that, hey, instead of kind of waiting for the students to kind. To tell us what they're doing, we're going to kind of be the leader and kind of helping them understand how to use this technology in a way that's more functional. But policy things, I just think things, just how, how students can fund education, is a big piece, a big concern among us. And because, you know, these the professional schools are, for my perspective, you know, they're not, they're not inexpensive opportunities, great careers, great financial resources when you graduate, but you got to get to that point. I think that's a big piece. But I definitely think the artificial intelligence, the AI, the technology, are big things that we're looking into at this university, at the college, that we're prepared for that so we can help our students, because in their embrace, that's going to be the Embrace they're going to be doing that in three or four years. That's That's how pharmacy is going to change, how healthcare is going to change how you interact, for the pharmacist is going to change over the next three to five years. Absolutely, I think for the positive, I think for better, I'm always for more technology, more knowledge. I think it, I think that's what we try to explore with our students.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Is there a specific so I want to, I want to keep going here, because one of the things that we've been talking about with AI is helping people in their specific roles understand how AI can be useful, right? So role specific training, or role specific literacy. So thinking about pharmacy, what are the ways in which I AI are going to transform this profession for the positive? Like, is there a specific example that you can use that you've thought about in your teaching or with students who are in your program?

Ben Gross  
We've used like bots to kind of help people understand the material. That's stuff that's out there that we're looking into ways for resources, for students to be able to understand in a different way, so that we are not leaving the classroom, but we're adding all this information outside of that support, and also, too, that what I find to be more functional and but is always a struggle is students need to critically think. And so that critical thinking, if you read a lot about critical thinking, has lots to do. The fact that lot of students don't read. They get information from some smart technology, a quick, Twitter, quick. Well, now X, you know what? I've just aged myself by that, but, you know, yeah, you know. So, yeah, I think we're all very similar age here. So yeah, they're getting information, and they don't use Twitter and X, they use other stuff. I get that, but they get their resources, but it's limited in that. And so when he asked them to read things prior to prep, a lot of times, that's a struggle for them, and we have to recognize that. And so are we able to give them more AI technology, provide them things where they can interact with the bot, they can interact as if we're actually there with them. So they may they may have, may hear concept in class. And how can they be supported outside of that? I think that's a great opportunity that that we're trying to explore, versus the the some of the ideas that, oh, you know, AI is an opportunity for them to not do their own work, right? That's, that's if you're in those world you know that that's if you've been in a conference. That's the kind of like now we're trying to police it. I think it's an opportunity to say, no, no, no, do it this way, right? This is the way you should do it, and this is the way it's gonna be more effective. And you learning in that experience.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I think it's a good reminder to think about that historically too, right? When the internet came 30 years ago, and I know, because the only thing I really heard with your response is that we're all the same age here, and I'm clearly 10 years older than both of you, which is awesome, so I appreciate that Ben Absolutely. But I remember when the internet got going right, like I was actually working. I know you two were in high school, but I was working in higher ed, and I remember people were really afraid, right? They were really afraid. And I don't think fear is the response to AI at all. We do have to embrace it. And I'm glad to hear professions like pharmacy and programs like yours really trying to lead in that space. It is really important.

Kevin Thomas  
That's an excellent point, grandpa.

Ben Gross  
I think I remember the first computer I like the Zoolander was kind of trying to get into the computer, and he's like, trying to break it open. I feel like that's how I was when I first saw the computer that that weighed like 300 pounds in my parents house. So, but, yeah, so the dawn of the internet. We're not that old to know when the internet actually started, which is amazing, too. So, and I think that, yeah, and all jokes aside, that tells you a little bit about how, how far we've advanced. Right to think, to think that I can access right now my email from a phone I that was. And that that was not and it wasn't that long ago that that wasn't even a possibility. So I think embracing this is the way to go. I and I think it is. It's a competitive advantage if you want to think of back to the business side of things, and what makes your program different, what makes you your business, your institution, your higher higher education, learning. How do you how do you have a competitive edge? And that's the one thing is in it, to embrace things, versus to wait for someone else to do it. So and you there's all across the board, Blockbuster ages again, right? We know it blockbuster. That was the best thing to do on a Friday was to go get a movie, right? And get a Little Caesar's pizza. Probably, that was what we used to do. It's Little Caesar still around, but they're gone, and because they didn't embrace anything about change. And so I I think if we want to talk a little bit, you know, where we began this conversation, where we are now, I think you want to say, like, what makes a leader different is like they're able to embrace change. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
And AI is evolving quickly. There's no question about that, and I think that that makes people more scared, but it's not, it's not a reason to not, not start tackling that issue for sure.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, as we move into some maybe more fun questions. Ben, we the really difficult ones, heavy lifting. There Ben great questions are brought to you by Lipscomb University's masters in AI master tomorrow's technology today.

Ben Gross  
I just, I can see, I can see the money coming to you guys right now. I can feel it. I guess it's coming down. So,

Kevin Thomas  
So when, when you think you know about your job and work and being in pharmacy, and you introduce yourselves to folks, and they know that you're a pharmacy, like, what are the really great things that come from being a pharmacist? And then maybe, what are the not so great things? And why are some of the not so great things when people ask you about medication all the time?

Ben Gross  
Well, obviously, you've been part of those conversations, Kevin, quite a bit, but fish oil, Yep, absolutely I okay. So pharmacy, and why I went into it particular was it's, it's a very respected profession, right? And so when you say, Hey, I'm a pharmacist, they they recognize that, hey, at least at this point, you're the drug expert in the room, and they appreciate your knowledge. And some have had really great experiences with real great pharmacists, and they have that kind of built in. And so there are respect chief for that. So so you don't have to, you know, tell them too much about what you do, because they kind of know what that's going on. I say, being a pharmacist, from where I grew up, and what I have to do, I get a lot of questions that are not always medication related. I've had that question like, Hey, can you take a look at this? Like, no, I don't want to. I don't want to. I can't help you. No, no, there. There are. There are physician assistants, physicians, nurse practitioners. They can go out there and look at those things for you. That's what they that's what their job is. They're all those types of things. But I think that's the that's probably and then the other thing is, I love it when I talk to especially some of our Kevin's and our friends, talk to me about medications as if I don't know anything about it. And when I tell them that they're absolutely incorrect about what they're saying about their medication, they say, Well, I looked it up on the internet. I think it's right. I was like, Okay, fair enough. All right, goodbye. So, yeah, I can't, I can't win you over, you know, and patients do that to me all the time. I still practice in a clinic one day a week, and they'll, they'll give me a list of, you know, I'm not taking that medication. It's too expensive. Oh, I understand. I'm saying so, so what are you taking? It's like, oh, I'm taking this really neat supplement that I found on the internet, through Amazon. It's awesome. I saw how much is that? It's always just $500 a month. Okay, all right, I'm gonna lose you on that particular piece, right? But those are, I guess, those are the challenges you get in this profession. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, yeah, the world's changed quite a bit, right? Like as a scientist, those challenges are coming fast and furious. Has your program kind of done anything to kind of deal with that specifically, or is, how are you? How do you handle that? Maybe not just as an individual, but when you are training pharmacists?

Ben Gross  
Yeah, I think the our faculty do a lot of spend a lot of time on professional development, then we put in our budget to kind of support our faculty, to make sure that they are on the cutting edge of what's out there, right? And using technology to do that, make sure they're listening multiple times. I'll tell you, I always someone says, Hey, I found this resource. I'm always the one saying, Okay, where did you find that? And I go to Facebook or wherever that location is, of course, algorithm then suddenly I am now looking I'm interested whatever that is. Now for the next year, you are 30 days constantly snoozing it, but I'm, I'm like, Hey, what is that? And I I will be very serious with you when a patient comes in, or student, or anyone, whatever they have, and they have some concepts, some idea or something that they I've learned for a long time ago, do not discount them because you're going to lose them. I make sure I pay attention what they're saying. I listen to them very carefully, and then I determine and try to give them the knowledge. And sometimes they want to hear and sometimes they don't that it makes me feel comfortable that, hey, I've least listened to you. And, yeah, yeah. And then make sure that that we're, you know, you know that I'm not discounting it, although my brain sometimes I'm going, this is what you're saying is a little crazy, but I'm not going to discount it just yet. But let me give you information. Let's look at the resource. And I I find a lot of patients now and students do say, Hey, I found this on the internet, on Facebook. It's probably not accurate. About 10 years ago, it was like, I saw this on the Facebook. It's definitely accurate, right? Okay, now it's more like I've seen this. I don't know if this is accurate or not. Can you help me with it? I think a lot more people are in that kind of framework. But definitely we try to teach our students to always be lifelong learners. You got to continue to learn. You can't what I taught 10 years ago is actually obsolete now, and so you've got to be up with the times and the resources related to that.

Kevin Thomas  
And I assume, because the chair that you sit in Ben, and we don't think about this as much on the staff standpoint of things, because professional development is important, and constant learning is something that we strive for. But when you're sitting in the chair that you sit in as a department chair, and the science in the world is revolving and evolving so quickly. I'm guessing, from a curricular standpoint, you're having to look at that pretty regularly to decide what's effective for our students, so that when they graduate, they're not five years behind.

Ben Gross  
Yes, we have to, I mean, we have to look at our curriculum. It's constantly changing. You have to be, you know, we're we're, there's a set of creation standards, obviously, from sacs, from the University accreditation standards, but we as an organization have accreditation standards that we're continuing to fulfill, even today, like a new guideline just came out on how we treat people with blood pressure that's really changing and will change how you guys and I will be treated if we get high blood pressure in the future. I just saw something just I mean literally, and LinkedIn is a very great resource for me, if it is for you guys as a professional organization to find I make sure I follow the right people that are the thought leaders in areas and to help me with those scenarios. But you know, even today, there was something that came out of how we actually should practice as pharmacists, our patient pharmacist patient care process. So I think it's constantly being able to, you just can't sit at home and just sit around you got to be able to find the resources to be able to continue to learn and grow. And we try to teach our our students that they get very lost in the dynamics of the curriculum the classroom, like I got my exam. I took it, I'm good. And so we try to spend a lot of time trying to develop them as they're kind of really their own kind of identity as as they pursue that career in pharmacy.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Then we promise fun. And then we asked a couple more serious questions.

Speaker 1  
I know, I know. I'm like, All right, let's but, but I favor.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
It is time, and that's my fault, right? Like, I I kind of jumped right back in there. But it's time for the lightning round, which I do think is going to be more fun. So let's Okay, let's get going. Okay, I'm gonna start us off favorite meal, Ben.

Ben Gross  
Oh, favorite meal, fried chicken. 

Kevin Thomas  
Fried chicken from where?

Ben Gross  
Um, if I had my choice, it would be from my hometown, where my mom cooking it. But I don't. I am not. I'm not partial. I don't have a special place. Depends on how many ads you want to get. But you know, Nashville is known for hot chicken. I'm not a hot chicken person necessarily. I do like it. But any fried chicken for me is good, chicken tenders, chicken wings, chicken legs. I got it. That's my favorite. It's bad for me. I don't I don't eat as much as I used to, because really bad for me. But, yeah, that's my favorite.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I love fried chicken. Let's go. I'm definitely there for that.

Kevin Thomas  
This is for our Nashville audience, and just in case you're in the area, I guess, what's your go to lunch spot when you're in the think mode?

Ben Gross  
Ooh, go to lunch spot when I'm at think mode. Hmm, that's a great question. That's a tough question. I don't want to pause and make your podcast be delayed. I'm trying to think of the places. I mean, I there's a great barbecue place down the road for me, and it's a great place, and there's no one in there that's like looking to talk to me about anything. If I go to some places, there's especially if I go to where I or where I see patients. Oftentimes I go to lunch. I'm there's a patient in that area. Yeah, so hey, what's going on? Dr, gross. What are you doing? But I love places that provide but, yeah, I think there's a great barbecue place. And I think that's a go to places comfort food. And I just can't sit there by myself kind of kind of relax and thinking through like, Okay, what kind of things I want to, want to accomplish for the week? Those are good places. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
We need to know the name of that place. 

Ben Gross  
Well, there's Martin's barbecue, Ed Lee's barbecue. There's some good places now, now I went to school in Memphis. There's all kinds of Memphis places. Those are good places. They too so, but some of them have come up here, like Corky central barbecue, all those kind of places.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Great. Love that.

Kevin Thomas  
we built in Fried Chicken and Barbecue to the first two questions. All right,

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's awesome. Coke or Pepsi?

Ben Gross  
Then Oh, oh, definitely, definitely, Coke, Diet Coke. 

Kevin Thomas  
Amen, that's a great one. Sorry. I got lost in the fact that Diet Cokes my love language.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
If I'm not zero guy. Come on, Coke Zero to diet coke too. Oh yeah. I mean,

Ben Gross  
I can spend an entire, like, you know, hour talking about the differences in the Coke products. But Coke Zero for me is, is a backup. So now I have been to, I have been to a restaurant when they say, Hey, I like a diet coke that said we only have Pepsi products. I said, Okay, I'll have unsweet tea. Or I've said I'm leaving, or I drink a glass of water. I've done that plenty of times. They're like, you don't want, you don't want Diet Pepsi, but Pepsi zero is, like, probably an option, it's good or a Diet Dr Pepper.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I'm not really a snob. I mean, I have preferences, but I'll drink any diet drink or any zero drink, I think that's carbonated.

Ben Gross  
That tells me a lot about you, right there, right?

Kevin Thomas  
And it's amazing that we're friends. #neverpepsi. Okay, Ben, if you could switch from being a Cowboys fan to any other team, what would it be? This is, this is very much in our topics we've had.

Ben Gross  
Well, I'm not going to do the Titans because that that doesn't, that isn't, that doesn't equate to me. Although I like purple, I can't, I don't know about a Vikings fan. I don't know if I can, can, can make that transition. I'd love to say, I'd love to say the LA Rams, because I know that would make your like, blood boil a bit, but I'm not going to do that. I, I, I'm on the, I definitely on the bandwagon of achieves. Fan, I guess if I had to choose a different and, and it's very bandwagon, because they're very popular right now. But I do like Kansas City, that area, so, yeah, maybe, maybe, yeah, that's very much a bandwagon answer. Outside of that, maybe the bills and I've been to...

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
We cannot be friends, Ben. Like I was going to suggest, right? If you if you're getting rid of one disappointment, you should just join the other most disappointing team in the NFL, and that's the Miami Dolphins, the team that I love. But Dallas is probably right in the same wavelength of disappointing NFL teams in the last 25 years, but not more disappointing than the dolphins. I think the Cowboys have at least won a playoff game in the last 25 years.

Ben Gross  
But not very many. Yes, it's been a very long, long, long history of disappointment So, and it's just going to continue. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
We're not, we're not as it's not, yes, it is plenty disappointing. But you know what I say, at least we're not like Kevin Thomas, and we just start picking winning teams each year that we're going to follow like, and he says, I did all this research to make the Vikings my favorite team. Like, come on. 

Ben Gross  
I want to believe him as his friend, right? And I trust him on that he did the research. I get it, but I, I'm a skeptic, too. I have to say that just I'm I'm being vulnerable here and saying that I'm unsure of his selection. 

Kevin Thomas  
This is ridiculous. All right, we're moving on. Okay, I don't even know what to do with that one. What's the last book, professional or fun that you couldn't put down. 

Ben Gross  
I'm a big so I'm a big Jack Reacher character. So as far as, like, a book that just I can, like, breathe right through reading gone tomorrow, right now, and I can't put it down, so I'm reading that at night. That's a really good one. And then the book I loved it's, I'm a history guy, and a lot of people don't love these books. I did read Alex and Hamilton, which is the basis, really, basis, kind of basis of the the musical, the playwright, but it's like, I mean, it's like 800 pages, so I'm reading the same all. I'm reading his George Washington, and it's just a book that you have to read like you have to really think to read through it. And so those are some of the books that I read so and then I, I'll just be honest you, I I read, make your bed. I don't know if you've read it's like 100 page real quick book talking about tenants. It's if you ever the admiral that did this, his speech, his graduation, should be talked about the top 10 things, and one of them is like, make your bed. And I always love I tell it to students all the time. It's like, if you make your bed in the morning, and a lot of people don't, some people like, Well, I'm gonna sleep in when I get home, so why didn't even make it? But no matter what you're doing, it's not really his tenant, but it's kind of got time, but make your bed if you come home and you've had a disastrous today, it's a Tuesday from I don't know what, right when you come home and your beds least made, at least you've accomplished something from that. So I teach my kids to do that. I do. We do the same. So when I come home, no matter what, I've got a bed that's made, so I get so I can fall into it and and debulk, or whatever I need to, but that's those are the books I've read here recently. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Early professional mentor that you stay in touch with, Ben?

Ben Gross  
Oh, yeah, um, I had dinner with him a couple nights ago. So my residency program director, my faculty member from UT, University of Tennessee, college pharmacy. That's an early mentor for me. And then we have a we have a person, Mike young, I'd stay in touch with our advisor. Great, great connection there that still someone I could reach out to and talk to and and then someone i I'll be honest with, someone I hope that I continue to be for other people. If I had to pick a person that, hey, I wish I could be that person. He's one of those individuals. Both those are great people have been great mentors to me and and taught me how to be a mentor as well.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
That's great

Kevin Thomas  
Beach, Lake or mountain?

Ben Gross  
I'm not a beach guy. This skin doesn't do well with sun. So I'm not a real beach guy. I think I'm mountains. I like mountains, not necessarily the hike, but to drive my car and then be in a cabin and actually look out. It really pretty scenery. I think that's probably it so, but it did, you know, that's a that's a tough question, because it depends, it depends on so my family loves the beach and my family loves the lake, so I love where they want to be. So I guess that's the question, yeah. But if you just if I'm by myself, I'm, I'm, I'm very much in the mountains, yeah.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
To me, it depends on which kid I'm with, right? Like, my youngest loves the beach. My oldest prefer the mountains. So okay, yeah, and both of them are terrified of lakes, so we set off the list, yeah, okay.

Kevin Thomas  
Ben, your current hyper fixation?

Ben Gross  
Hyper fixation, wow. 

Kevin Thomas  
I know this is the question Brody. We got one in that person just was hit with.

Ben Gross  
Alright. So okay. So I've been doing some, you know, di di projects at home, so do yourself stuff. I've been fixated on a wall that I have, one probably screwed up. And I have been like, mattistically trying to make it perfect again. And my wife says, You still haven't got it yet, and like so I'm hyper fixate on that. I go in there every it's a bathroom, it's only ours. It's like a single toilet, bathroom in our in our bedroom that no one else sees but her and I. But we are both fixated, like it has to be perfect. And so it was a contractor job, and then something happened, and I've been fixing it. I've been fixing it for weeks and weeks and weeks. It's not perfect yet. I have done everything. I'm hyper fixated on it. It drives me crazy. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
But I get the last Speed Round question, and so it has to be it has to be short, it has to be quick, okay. Best. Kevin Thomas, story you can share on the show.

Kevin Thomas  
Oh god, oh my gosh. Then the next time we're going to Tennessee together, I owe you lunch. Don't forget that I owe you lunch, Ben.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
So yes, we're all in agreement on that.

Kevin Thomas  
All in agreement, yeah, yeah. Ben, thank you so much for being with us today. It's been a pleasure to have you and and thank you. Just, it's been great learning from your experience and just hearing about your journey a little bit more well.

Ben Gross  
I appreciate you guys letting me have that opportunity and to come on and and not do too well. What is it? Too winded on it, but I appreciate you guys. This has been fun. My first podcast, guys, I was, oh, that's, yeah, yeah. So absolutely, my first podcast, yeah, absolutely. So it's been fun. Thanks so much. Ben, okay, great to meet you all right. Great meeting you too. 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Oh, Kevin, I can see why you guys are such good friends.

Kevin Thomas  
How fantastic, right? He's, he's amazing. Just like you listen. I think Ben Gross is next level. It's just in his approach and his demeanor, in just all the things we didn't even talk about, the fact that I think he's been in like 45 weddings, because everybody loves Ben Gross. Ben Gross is just great.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah. I mean, I always think about, like, what's the one takeaway from some of our serious questions, and that, that evolution, right, that being willing to change so important when you're a leader, right? You can't just, you can't be stuck in your ways. You have to evolve. And I think I'm sure in his profession, certainly that's the case. But if you're in higher ed, working in advising and student success, right? Evolution and Change is the only constant, right. And so I just really appreciate that about his his response to some of those questions.

Kevin Thomas  
Yeah, and, and I think about it from the standpoint of talking about faculty and staff and the importance of both of those relationships that it is so often on many campuses, a little bit of a contentious question. Faculty think that this is their role, and staff think this is their role. But the truth of it is is without working together and been pointing this out, that neither one really functions super well, and so it's so important that those two areas of campus, those two lifelines of success on a college campus work really well together, because that's where that success comes from. So I thought that point you made was is really powerful one as well.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, I've seen that be really good and I've seen it be not good, and being really good is way, way better than not good. And it is really interesting to me that we don't try to value that more and find intentional ways to make those relationships really positive. Because at the end of the day, when those two sides are working with each other, the student experience is better, too, and that's really important.

Kevin Thomas  
So as we're wrapping up today, what are the things that are standing out to you, what's on your mind, What's in your bag, what's what's the thing that you're thinking about?

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Yeah, so, like, the one good thing we do our phone calls, like this, I was thinking about that, like, tell me something good. Like, cat and I are addicted to this YouTube channel from Amoeba Records, and it's a, it's a segment that they do called what's in my bag, and it's artists and movie stars that go into Amoeba Records, either in Hollywood or San Francisco, pulling out the records, the books, the DVDs that they have bought at the store, and they're interviewed by a store employee. I am fascinated by what artists and and comedians and movie stars are inspired by when they go into a record store, and I can't get enough of it, and there's, like, they've been doing this for like, 15 years. So you they've got a they've got some covid sections where people are pulling stuff from their house, and they've got stuff from 10 or 15 years ago, and then just stuff from last week. And it's, I'm addicted to it. How about you? What's good? 

Kevin Thomas  
Well, kind of following up yours. If you haven't checked it out, there's a show on Netflix. It's similar to that, talking about guests with guitars, Norman's rare, rare guitars. I don't know if you've watched that one, but it's pretty it's pretty great, too. Things on my mind, yeah. So I think that I'm in this focus of the simple things. We take for granted in life, on things. And it hit me, we came back from the lake a couple of weeks ago and our fridge was dead. And so it just hit me with this, we're going to buy a new fridge, and we're figuring out the layers that are there, and the first person, our first fridge we try to buy. They say, Well, we can have that there in 10 to 14 days. That's not an option. No, you can't go without a fridge for 10 to 14 days. And then the next one was, well, it'll be a couple days, okay, a couple days, that'll be fine. A couple days was not fine. No, a couple days, it's really hard. It's one of these things you take for granted. When the air conditioning goes down, oh, it's awful. Or if your your dishwasher breaks, or your but your fridge, so many layers of things, the cold beverage, food that you can keep in the house, all of it, it just the little things matter so much, and so that's been stuck in my mind. What are those little things that matter so much and what we probably take for granted? 

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
I don't want to belabor this, right? We had a car situation. We just bought a second car. The same thing, right? Used Car, relatively new. You pull it off the shop you you wake up the next day and there's a big oil stain in your driveway, and you're like, What the heck? You take it back in. They get it fixed and get it sorted. Hey, you know, one thing, I do not take for granted, our friendship, my man.

Kevin Thomas  
Oh, look at you.

Michael "Brody" Broshears  
Absolutely. So hey, we need to close things out, though, don't we? You know? And I was really glad to meet Ben and so friends that wraps up this pickup meeting. Let's do a same time next couple weeks, no agenda required, just do good and be nice. We'll see you the next time.